Boat sank in a race. Lessons learned

Scott T-Bird · Jul 5, 2016

Ahh ... now I see the connection to Daveinet's thoughts. A simple handicap system will have lots of imperfections. A complicated system, under consideration for fairness in all conditions, would probably suffer from being too ... complicated.

Jumpstart · Jul 5, 2016

If I'm not mistaken, the Capri 25 has no bridge deck and a pretty big cockpit. Ballast to displacement of less than 30% and beamy. All bad things if you have a knockdown. 30 knot gusts are not that rare around here with steep chop about twice the height seen in those pictures. Could be why we don't see any Capri 25s racing on Lake Erie. It looks like keeping the drop boards in and secured on a Capri 25 would be a good idea anytime the wind goes above 15knots.

Sandy Stone · Jul 6, 2016

And don't forget to latch those cockpit lockers closed. I think more than 1 or 2 J24's have gone down that way.

Roadking Larry · Jul 6, 2016

Skipper needs a diving alarm.

MitchM · Jul 7, 2016

remember Force 10 Fastnet? the race committee's helpful advice was 'each captain shall personally determine whether he should drop out of participation in the race...'. some didn't , and didn't ever come back. read Rousmaniere's great book, then decide for yourself. as for me, looking at radar, contemplating 3 reefs and possibly having to winch the boat back into the slip beckons me to the bar.

druid · Jul 8, 2016

Hmmmm..... First, the weather: sounds to me like the gusts were the problem. Any "non-dinghy" boat should be fine in 25 knots - hell, I had my Cal 25 out in 35+, 8-10ft seas... but gusts CAN be dangerous for racers who are "kinda overcanvassed" in the 12-15. Upwind, you can always feather and dump wind in the gusts, but you can't do that flying a chute.

But... how did the Capri end up upside-down? Even filled with water, the keel should have enough weight to right her (IOC(?) rules say the boat MUST be "self-righting"...) . Or is it one of these water-ballasted things that don't really have any ballast?

It does sound like the crew was more interested in winning the race than their own safety.

druid

cb32863 · Jul 8, 2016

druid said:
Hmmmm..... First, the weather: sounds to me like the gusts were the problem. Any "non-dinghy" boat should be fine in 25 knots - hell, I had my Cal 25 out in 35+, 8-10ft seas... but gusts CAN be dangerous for racers who are "kinda overcanvassed" in the 12-15. Upwind, you can always feather and dump wind in the gusts, but you can't do that flying a chute.

But... how did the Capri end up upside-down? Even filled with water, the keel should have enough weight to right her (IOC(?) rules say the boat MUST be "self-righting"...) . Or is it one of these water-ballasted things that don't really have any ballast?

It does sound like the crew was more interested in winning the race than their own safety.

druid

See my and Jackdaw's previous posts in this thread as to what happened. No, it is not water ballasted, link here. They were not over canvassed as the rest of the Capri 25 fleet was sailing though, a few of them pulled out. It was a very puffy day yes, and they had the "perfect storm" to cause the capsize. Just because the rules say it has to be self righting, doesn't mean it still can't sink. Your comment about them being more concerned about winning than safety is unwarranted as you were not on the boat, do not know the owner or the crew and are just going off of an opinion based on your own biased opinion.

Interesting how people are saying they kind of deserved it as they were racing. Same mentality back in the early days of auto racing, drivers shouldn't expect to be helped all that much in an accident seeing as they know the risks of racing....

flynhi4u · Jul 8, 2016

To quote Capt Ron, "if it can happen, it will happen, out there". Yes they were racing, does it really change things in the end? Not really. Their boat got knocked down, turtled, and sunk when the cabin flooded after they broke the "diving bell" trying to right the boat. Sometimes things just happen, that is why they invented the word accident. Could they have prevented it by bailing out of the race or staying at the dock? Sure. What fun is that? Would having the boards in the companionway shut have helped? Maybe. But how many of us sail around like that on a inland lake in non storm like conditions? No one got hurt that I read of and I am sure they will learn from this and be better prepared next time. Heck I bet one day soon they will even be laughing about it. Can we all learn something from this? Probably.
I have not been sailing nearly as long as some others who have weighed in but one thing I have learned in my time sailing is that wind is invisible and it has a mind of it's own. Last night we went from barely moving to "Holy Crap hang on!" in what seemed like seconds. The lake turned from glass to 3 foot rollers in less than a couple of minutes. We were the only sailboat on the lake as all the others gave up and went home due to lack of wind. We were trying to join them as we were heading back to the slip, at turtle speed. They missed out on all the fun. While we did not turtle the boat we were not prepared for it and it caught us off guard. It happens. The unexpected wind was caused by the inflow feeding a line of thunderstorms almost 80 miles north of us. We could see the lightning on the way home and Cindy and I guessed it to be around Indianapolis, looking at radar it turned out to be much further north than that.
My point is that at some point in time if we live active lives that we too will be caught off guard by wind, weather, or mechanical issue. The best we can hope for is that we make the right choices, luck is on our side, and we are able keep the boat long skinny stick pointing up. If not, we may find our actions and the consequences of them being dissected on a forum just like this one.

Sam

bgary · Jul 8, 2016

Did the boat actually turtle?
If I understand correctly, it was knocked flat enough that water was able to flow in through the open companionway.... but it sank "upright" (keel first).

flynhi4u · Jul 8, 2016

Bgary,
Somewhere I read where it was floating inverted till they broke the "diving bell" trying to right it, then it flooded and sunk in 80 feet of water. On the way down it righted itself due to the keel being heavier.

Sam

walt · Jul 8, 2016

There is another aspect to stability and that is free water inside the hull is very de-stabilizing. I have capsized a dingy and the first time I did this I let a lot of water get inside the hull through a hatch somewhat similar to a companionway hatch. I uprighted the boat but the water inside the hull just destroyed any righting moment. If a boat design allows water to come through the companionway in a knock down, a completely closed hatch is a very good idea.

A couple pictures of a simple experiment show this. The first picture below is a tin can with a penny over to one side. In the second picture, the shot glass was filled and dumped into the can and you can see how the stability was affected.

bgary · Jul 8, 2016

ah, thanks. But... I'm still (somewhat) surprised that it inverted. Just thinking through the physics from "held flat by the wind" to inverted, with no significant swell/wave action to kick it over to a position of inverted stability. "in general", a keelboat on its side that is filling with water will follow the keel, not the rig. Lighter boats (eg/centerboard dinghies) are more prone to inverting because the geometry of the hull on its moves the center of gravity toward the rig.
I'll have to ponder that.

druid · Jul 8, 2016

Jackdaw said:
A boat's handicap is a SINGLE value that is assumed to define its performance capabilities in all circumstances. What is is a number that rates a boats in windward/leeward performance in 12 knots of breeze.

Some boats are demons in light air. Some rock in heavy. Some reach better.

LOL - this reminds me of a Nanaimo Single-handed Race I was in with my Cal 25. At one point I was parallel to a San Juan 24 (my nemesis!). The wind would die off a bit, and he started pulling ahead. Then the wind would pick up a bit, we'd heel over and the Cal pulled ahead... we went that way for probably 5 miles. (He crossed the finish line about 10 feet in front of me, so I crushed him on (PHRF) Corrected Time!)

druid

druid · Jul 8, 2016

cb32863 said:
See my and Jackdaw's previous posts in this thread as to what happened. No, it is not water ballasted, link here. They were not over canvassed as the rest of the Capri 25 fleet was sailing though, a few of them pulled out. It was a very puffy day yes, and they had the "perfect storm" to cause the capsize. Just because the rules say it has to be self righting, doesn't mean it still can't sink. Your comment about them being more concerned about winning than safety is unwarranted as you were not on the boat, do not know the owner or the crew and are just going off of an opinion based on your own biased opinion.

Interesting how people are saying they kind of deserved it as they were racing. Same mentality back in the early days of auto racing, drivers shouldn't expect to be helped all that much in an accident seeing as they know the risks of racing....

I'd say the fact that they capsized and sank is a pretty good indication that they were "over-canvassed". I've broached many times in 25 knots and never capsized.

And I stand on my statement that they were more concerned with winning than safety: although I was not actually ON the boat, Jack gives a pretty good description of what happened. They were flying a LOT of sail to try to win, and that much sail ended up sinking the boat and putting the crew in danger. But as Jack and others have said: it's a calculated risk. Racers don't tether because it would slow them down during sail changes, etc. Is that SAFER than being tethered? No - it's putting "making the boat go fast" ahead of safety. Even flying a chute in gusty conditions is more dangerous than just main and jib: why do they do it? To make the boat go faster, at the expense of safety.

I'm not saying that's a BAD thing (certainly not saying they shouldn't be helped!). We all take risks - even going out AT ALL on the water presents some risk. I'm just pointing out that racers take MORE risks in order to win races. (which is probably why I don't win a lot of races...) And yes, I still say the risks they took to try to win were the main contributing factors to the sinking.

druid

Daveinet · Jul 8, 2016

I have not yet bought a kite for my boat. I've often thought if I did, I would rig a quick release with a rip cord attached, so in an emergency, a quick yank on the cord would release the top of the kite. Seems anytime there is a knock down from flying the kite, releasing it doesn't help because the line is sill attached to the top of the mast pulling it down. Being able to release the line from the mast could prevent that.