Top telltales not flying right, even with genny cars fully forward

Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Gene, I'm interested in how this turn out for you. When you posted about this problem in the C22 forum I almost rush ordered some additional 18 inch T-tracks to add to the front end of my inboard tracks... If it is a problem with the way your sail is cut or something else not related to the available length of your track then I probably won't experience the same issue. BUT, if I am going to add that additional track I want to do it now before I roll on my new non-skid.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Gene, I'm interested in how this turn out for you. When you posted about this problem in the C22 forum I almost rush ordered some additional 18 inch T-tracks to add to the front end of my inboard tracks... If it is a problem with the way your sail is cut or something else not related to the available length of your track then I probably won't experience the same issue. BUT, if I am going to add that additional track I want to do it now before I roll on my new non-skid.
Jackdaw: The above note from clouddiver gave me a thought. I think the C22's have outboard tracks and I wonder if that location impedes his closehauled performance. Maybe due to the smaller size of the C22's jib and the deck space between the tracks it doesn't matter. Inboard & outboard tracks made a big difference on my C30. I'm just wondering about the need for longer tracks. I'm trying to picture this situation in my mind and wondering how long of a track would be needed on a boat the size of a C22. I used about 1/2 the track on my C30.
 
Jul 14, 2015
840
Catalina 30 Stillhouse Hollow Marina
Granted, I do not have a C22, I have a 1986 C30 with a ridiculous length of outboard track. Yesterday while sailing in 10 to 15 knot winds I experimented with moving my sheet angle forward further than I usually go. In fact I tried to duplicate the angle seen in the original pictures in this post. Guess what....the top telltale fluttered. Moved it back to where I usually set them on my 130 genoa and close hauled....all telltales flew correctly.. Release a little and the top flutters first.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw: The above note from clouddiver gave me a thought. I think the C22's have outboard tracks and I wonder if that location impedes his closehauled performance. Maybe due to the smaller size of the C22's jib and the deck space between the tracks it doesn't matter. Inboard & outboard tracks made a big difference on my C30. I'm just wondering about the need for longer tracks. I'm trying to picture this situation in my mind and wondering how long of a track would be needed on a boat the size of a C22. I used about 1/2 the track on my C30.
For sure this factors, and that's why my original comment mentioned that the cut of the sail and location of the clew could be important.

The C22 has only outboard tracks, and are placed for a genoa. Running a jib to these tracks would required a VERY high clewed sail to make the sheeting angle work. If you were to sail primary with a jib, or cared about max performance, a MUCH better option would be to install a 2nd set of jib tracks, and place them inboard on the cabintop or more likely outside the shrouds to get the correct 7-9 degree trim angle. Due to the forward lower shrouds, this might limit you a max jib size to a 90%. But it would allow a low-clewed blade jib, and the boat would point much much better.

You can see placement of jib tracks would be complicated by the pesky fore and aft lowers! Hate that!

 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
To give you a better idea what what the inside tracks would ideally look like with the jib in trim, here's our 260 going upwind. The jib is trimmed to within 6 inches of the track, and the car is placed so the sheet angle splits the sail (as a base setting). That track is about 18 inches from the mast, giving a 8 degree jib trim angle. The boat simply screams upwind. But the 260 is fractional, and has no forward lowers. This makes placement of the (factory) track easy.

 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Jackdaw,
I'm in the process of painting deck/cockpit/cabin gloss white. The nonskid areas are in grey primer and will get kiwi-grip last. I have taken off my outboard tracks and epoxy filled the holes, they will not go back on. I have new Ronstan 25mm track to go inboard, as tight as I can get against the cabin where the genoa car still clears by 1/16". The original outboard tracks were 48", the new tracks are 39 inches. I am matching the fore-end of the track to the original track position, the last 9 inches closest to the winch I doubt will be used, that's my logic anyway. I could also split the difference and 4.5" shy of the original footprint at either end. Anyway, in reference to the C-22 pic below, the fore end of my track will be at mid point of the rear window and hug the cabin.
I'm not sure if I will experience the same issue as Gene is having; if it's a sail cut issue or any other problem that is inclusive to his set-up I might not experience the same problem. If its a general problem with the C-22 rigging and hardware geometry then I may want to address it. My first instinct was to order additional 18 inch lengths to add to the fore end of each track giving me a total of 57 inches; I believe from the forward corner of the cockpit I could still reach that far to move the genoa car... not that I'm afraid to leave the cockpit, but just FYI.
At this point I don't know enough to say that I will even have the same problem and adding the extra length of track is even needed. I do want to figure it out, because as I set up the hardware plan I'm making sure the masking pattern for the non-skid matches... i.e. under the tracks will be gloss white so the bedding compound isn't trying to seal over rough non-skid. The position the inboard tracks are being placed is where there was previous nonskid.

For sure this factors, and that's why my original comment mentioned that the cut of the sail and location of the clew could be important.

The C22 has only outboard tracks, and are placed for a genoa. Running a jib to these tracks would required a VERY high clewed sail to make the sheeting angle work. If you were to sail primary with a jib, or cared about max performance, a MUCH better option would be to install a 2nd set of jib tracks, and place them inboard on the cabintop or more likely outside the shrouds to get the correct 7-9 degree trim angle. Due to the forward lower shrouds, this might limit you a max jib size to a 90%. But it would allow a low-clewed blade jib, and the boat would point much much better.

You can see placement of jib tracks would be complicated by the pesky fore and aft lowers! Hate that!

 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Jackdaw,
I'm in the process of painting deck/cockpit/cabin gloss white. The nonskid areas are in grey primer and will get kiwi-grip last. I have taken off my outboard tracks and epoxy filled the holes, they will not go back on. I have new Ronstan 25mm track to go inboard, as tight as I can get against the cabin where the genoa car still clears by 1/16".

CloudDiver: Inboard & outboard tracks are 2 different things. In board are used for closehauled work and outboard are for all other points of sail. Before you start filling holes let's get Jackdaw's advise. He recommended cabin top tracks for closehauled work and I agree. I had cabin top tracks on my C30 but the problem I had was getting by the safety lines, which were in the way. I drank many a "tinney - Aussie for beer" trying to figure a solution, which never happened. Finally I settled on a barberhauler setup.

I think if you follow jackdaw's advise you'll have one of the fastest C22's in San Diego -- you may even be able to give my friend "Joe from San Diego" a run for his money with his C27. Since I don't know you well enough yet and even though you sound like a good mate, at this point I've got to put my money on Joe!!!
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
To give you a better idea what what the inside tracks would ideally look like with the jib in trim, here's our 260 going upwind. The jib is trimmed to within 6 inches of the track, and the car is placed so the sheet angle splits the sail (as a base setting). That track is about 18 inches from the mast, giving a 8 degree jib trim angle. The boat simply screams upwind. But the 260 is fractional, and has no forward lowers. This makes placement of the (factory) track easy.

Jack,
Not to hijack the thread, but did you ever feel limited to a smaller jib because of the single track and having chain plates on the rail?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jack,
Not to hijack the thread, but did you ever feel limited to a smaller jib because of the single track and having chain plates on the rail?
Great question.

Most of the time no way. This is due to the flexibly of the non-overlapping (NOL) sail plan, and it's windward capability. Like most modern NOL designs, it is set up with a powerful rig with lots of sail area (SA/D of 24) even without a Genoa.

Off the wind sailing HAS to be done with a spinnaker... Close reaching is Code 0 time if you want to get anywhere.

The weak spot is always going to be very light (2-5) knots of breeze. You can notice the lack of Genoa here, but this is really only an issue when racing. Cruising you motor!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Cloud,

I'll try and answer what I think your asking about, let me know if I'm wrong!

Assuming the Genoa track on the C22 was too wide, all else being equal moving it in will improve pointing. But you will also have to skirt your genoa INSIDE the lifelines for that to have a positive effect.

The big part is to check on the sheet angles of your sails. There is an easy way to do this.

With your sail down, measure your luff and place a mark 1/2 the way down it. Then use a tape measure to indicate a line from this mid point to the clew. With a sharpie or sailmaker tape. Create a line from the clew to about 18 inches up this line. This is your base sheeting angle. Then when your sail is on and you head upwind, the sheet from the track to the clew should continue this line without a bend.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Jack,
Thanks for your reply... Oddly enough I was just working on some pictures and uploading them when your wrote your post, so here they are;

I went ahead and installed my inboard track on the starboard side. Using a clamp and some wood blocks I got the slight curve I needed to match the cabin and coaming curve. The originals were 48 inches, the new ones are 39". I matched the front edge to the original position. The second pics shows the aft end of the track ending 11 inches from the winch. The logic here, and I hope I'm not wrong since the holes are drilled, that the car will never go that far back even with the 150. You can probably see the pilot hole on the toe rail that marks the original outboard track, its not the forward screw but about the 2nd screw back. All of these holes were epoxy filled and the pilot hole is just slight divot to mark the center of the epoxy.



 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
So you can see how I'm masking off all the deck hardware, I want gloss white under the hardware for bedding in butyl tape. So after epoxy potting the holes I just drilled for the inboard tracks I'll sand that grey primer and use white primer, then gloss white topcoat.
Sooooo... I'm pretty certain I'm leaving my stanchion posts and life lines off. Like all the other holes on deck I over-drilled and epoxy filled, then marked the centers lightly with a forstner bit.
I'm on the fence about putting the outboard tracks back on, but not against it... its another $120 for 2 more 39 inch Ronstan 25 mm tracks. BTW, I love the Ronstan tracks because the come with plastic isolators that go around the 3/16" screw heads. As you can probably tell by the Andersen ST winches I'm not afraid to spend the extra coin.... but that is getting to the ludicrous level for a C-22, LOL.
On the bright side, once I come to a conclusion about this set up I can carry on painting and install the outboard tracks at any time. For the inboards, I'm doubting I'll need the extra 18 inches on the front side. I was looking all over the web for examples of genoa track set ups on racing C-22's but came up short. The only thing definitive I could find was that some people only install 24 inch tracks on the inboards and they are set equal to the forward edge of the original outboards, only used for close sheeting of the 120 Class Jib. So my deductive reasoning says they still use the outboard track when flying the 150.
BTW, I have new Hyde Sails... the 120 class Jib, a 130, and the old dacron 150 that came with my boat. I am a looooong way off from rigging or sailing so its hard to take measurements.
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Great question.

Most of the time no way. This is due to the flexibly of the non-overlapping (NOL) sail plan, and it's windward capability. Like most modern NOL designs, it is set up with a powerful rig with lots of sail area (SA/D of 24) even without a Genoa.

Off the wind sailing HAS to be done with a spinnaker... Close reaching is Code 0 time if you want to get anywhere.

The weak spot is always going to be very light (2-5) knots of breeze. You can notice the lack of Genoa here, but this is really only an issue when racing. Cruising you motor!
That's what I was thinking.
My boat is similar (albeit w/ a SA/D of ~19) and it's preventing me from wanting to do Thurs nite races non-spin races as we often get light summer winds. Though I do get a nice PHRF credit for the small jib, light winds can be brutal to get the boat moving.
For cruising, which I do mostly short-handed, I opted for a "screecher" sized code 0 on a top down furler. It is a more manageable compromise than full 0 and has good downwind performance which is useful when I don't want to tussle with my spinnaker all day long. But, it can't be used as a jib for races as it flies in front of the forestay nor can it count as a spinnaker as it is too small in girth. On the upside, its quick to deploy, put away, tack, and gybe. It also doesn't require twingers that a full zero would need.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
That's what I was thinking.
My boat is similar (albeit w/ a SA/D of ~19) and it's preventing me from wanting to do Thurs nite races non-spin races as we often get light summer winds. Though I do get a nice PHRF credit for the small jib, light winds can be brutal to get the boat moving.
For cruising, which I do mostly short-handed, I opted for a "screecher" sized code 0 on a top down furler. It is a more manageable compromise than full 0 and has good downwind performance which is useful when I don't want to tussle with my spinnaker all day long. But, it can't be used as a jib for races as it flies in front of the forestay nor can it count as a spinnaker as it is too small in girth. On the upside, its quick to deploy, put away, tack, and gybe. It also doesn't require twingers that a full zero would need.
You are right, that sail is a great way to keep moving on light air days. We do the same thing, but with a Code 1 asym. Your sail indeed would be difficult to race with if it does not (due to mid-girth) measure as a spinnaker. As a measured headsail it becomes your largest rated headsail and you loose your jib-credit, but can't use it upwind!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Cloud, some thoughts..

Re track ending short of original position I think you'll be OK, but that really depends on sail cut. But in general leads all the way back on the 150 probably means big air and it's time to swap down anyway.

Good call skipping the lifelines with the more inboard genoa tracks. You would be skirting them all the time and that would drive you crazy.

Make sure the cars don't bind on the curve and don't hit the side of the cabin trunk under load.

An even more inboard jib track would be a great idea, but it's clear placement might be an issue with the standing rigging all over the place. The C22 was never designed for what your doing to it. Looking at picture of the top-flight racing C22s is the way to go.... If it's possible, they would have figured out a way and done it. It's also possible they never race with jibs and always go genoa.

Or they might use/allow inhaulers. I don't know. Funny they call it One Design, but there are tons of allowable mods And probably several hundred pounds of difference between the lightest and heaviest hull produced. ;^)
 
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Sep 30, 2013
3,691
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
The big part is to check on the sheet angles of your sails. There is an easy way to do this.

With your sail down, measure your luff and place a mark 1/2 the way down it. Then use a tape measure to indicate a line from this mid point to the clew. With a sharpie or sailmaker tape. Create a line from the clew to about 18 inches up this line. This is your base sheeting angle. Then when your sail is on and you head upwind, the sheet from the track to the clew should continue this line without a bend.
Oh, NOW you tell me there's an easy way! After I spent three days standing on my head eating saltwater, clinging to the grab rail with my toenails, holding onto the toe rail with my eyelids, trying to sight up that dang imaginary line at that durn imaginary point!! :doh:

ANYWAY, I managed to get a pic of the situation. The cars are all the way forward, and the arrow points to the point which bisects the luff:

 
Jul 14, 2015
840
Catalina 30 Stillhouse Hollow Marina
Oh, NOW you tell me there's an easy way! After I spent three days standing on my head eating saltwater, clinging to the grab rail with my toenails, holding onto the toe rail with my eyelids, trying to sight up that dang imaginary line at that durn imaginary point!! :doh:

ANYWAY, I managed to get a pic of the situation. The cars are all the way forward, and the arrow points to the point which bisects the luff:

Your halyard needs to be tightened
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Oh, NOW you tell me there's an easy way! After I spent three days standing on my head eating saltwater, clinging to the grab rail with my toenails, holding onto the toe rail with my eyelids, trying to sight up that dang imaginary line at that durn imaginary point!! :doh:

ANYWAY, I managed to get a pic of the situation. The cars are all the way forward, and the arrow points to the point which bisects the luff:

Well that lead is low. But not tragically so. And it better if its too low than to high.

But sail trim is an issue. Are you going upwind here? In any case your telltails are flying but flying AWAY from the sail, that's not a good thing at all. It means that flow is not attached to the sail. Not attached means no lift just drag. You should trim on to flatten the sail, and probably come up a few degrees as you do so.
 
Apr 19, 2012
1,043
O'Day Daysailor 17 Nevis MN
A little more to port. :biggrin: I follow Don's book and it works well for me. Trying different methods is part of the fun of sailing. I drive my wife crazy (not my fault really) adjusting lines for better performance. She really gets a twist in her shorts when I make up a "Barber hauler", says I'm making up stuff to fiddle with.

All U Get
My wife gets a little bent out of shape when I keep making adjustments as well. She says "We're doing fine. Just leave it alone." But then, there's a reason I got the nickname fiddler. No I don't play a violin.
 
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