Top telltales not flying right, even with genny cars fully forward

justsomeguy · Mar 16, 2016

The cut of the jib? How high is the sail off the deck?

Jackdaw · Mar 16, 2016

Could be lots of things. The cut of your sails. Your drinking.

I could walk through the adjustment process, but first make sure you are sheeted hard in the first place. Stepping on the sheet (a good test BTW) moves the lead forward (removing twist) but also tightens the sheet. Often that's all you need.

rgranger · Mar 16, 2016

It can't be drinking too much... if that were it... you wouldn't care....

Jackdaw · Mar 16, 2016

It hard to know without seeing. Check you your sheet angle.

If you continue the line the sheet makes from the jib car to the clew, it should carry on to split your luff in half. What you are suggesting is that it is too flat of an angle and hits the luff below the mid point. That would cause your issue and also stepping on the sheet would help it (but not as a real solution!). If it does spit it in half, then the sail might have issues. If you cannot move the car to a point where that happens, then the sails clew was designed wrong. Sail-makers take this into account when designing sails for a particular boat.

Stu Jackson · Mar 17, 2016

Jackdaw said:
If you cannot move the car to a point where that happens, then the sails clew was designed wrong. Sail-makers take this into account when designing sails for a particular boat.

Which was also the answer in an earlier post about how high is your jib off the deck?

justsomeguy · Mar 17, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
Which was also the answer in an earlier post about how high is your jib off the deck?

I only asked because I've raised my genoa to where the difference became obvious.

All U Get · Mar 18, 2016

A little more to port.

I follow Don's book and it works well for me. Trying different methods is part of the fun of sailing. I drive my wife crazy (not my fault really) adjusting lines for better performance. She really gets a twist in her shorts when I make up a "Barber hauler", says I'm making up stuff to fiddle with.

All U Get

justsomeguy · Mar 18, 2016

Gene Neill said:
Just some guy my wife snuck on board.

I beg your pardon.
But, yay, a photo! Where on the sail are your telltales?

JohnVTX · Mar 18, 2016

Gene Neill said:
Sorry, I wasn't sure how to answer that. You mean how high at the tack, or at the clew? The clew varies from sail to sail; the tack is always at deck height.

Just look at the jib. Don't look at the guy on the rail. I don't know who that was. Just some guy my wife snuck on board.

Your sheet actually looks to me as though it is too far forward in this pic. Also as asked above, where are your telltales? Are they 18 inches or less from the luff? Jib telltales are on the luff of sail. Main telltales are close to or on the leach.

JohnVTX · Mar 18, 2016

Telltale placement....http://www.sailcare.com/telltale.shtml

Jackdaw · Mar 18, 2016

This is hard to tell from that photo. Best if you go close-hauled to check. As I mentioned, the sheet angle should bisect the luff, as shown below. Normally this the the start position; based on breeze and sail you might have to move a bit. But if you cannot get all tell-tails (top to bottom!) to fly there is an issue.

The blue lines are the sheet, and the sheet extended to the luff. You can see how the location of the clew factors, if the sail is cut wrong it is possible that the angle can never be correct anywhere on the track.

jwing · Mar 18, 2016

I had that problem, too, so I ripped those stupid ribbons right off the sail. No more flappy telltales.

Don Guillette · Mar 19, 2016

I've just gotten back into the world -- my wife was admitted to the hospital earlier this month with a kidney stone that blocked a duct and severe infection set in -- blood pressure was 65/40 with a fever of 105*. They by passed the stone with a drain. It was touch and go for a while but she's back home and recovering but it will be a good 3 weeks before she's back to normal. Almost lost her.

Anyway, how's this for a suggestion for fairlead adjustment. What your looking for is an "even break" of the sail from top to bottom. It's hard to see but once you see it you won't forget it and you can see it each time you tack. I'm sure jackdaw can explain this better than I can but here's how you do it. As you proceed through your tack, just before you go head to wind the sail will "break". If the foot flutters, the bottom luff or the bottom telltales break first -- move the leads aft. If the leech flutters, the top luffs or the top telltales break first -- move the fairleads forward. Gene, give this a try and I don't think you'll run out of track in the process.

Each time you tack you should go through this process. The crewman controlling the sheet that he's about to cut can call the "break" and the crewman on the other side can make the fairlead adjustment before he starts cranking in the sheet. Sounds like a lot to do but it's not and there's plenty of time to accomplish the adjustment especially if you have a Garhauer adjustable fairlead system, which I wouldn't be without. In fact, it was the first mod I made on any sailboat I owned.

jwing · Mar 20, 2016

I came to the conclusion that it is folly for me to think that I am going to be adjusting a pinstop genoa lead. I sail solo or with people who don't have the patience to fiddle around with adjustments like that. By default, those jib leads have become set it and forget it. My conclusion was the same as Don's: an adjustable lead system. I have the parts en route to me now, so I can't yet say how good it works. I did lengthen my track as part of the new system. Even if I don't need a bigger range, the adjustable car and footblock do take up some track length.

Once installed, it will be my third modification: 1) jib downhaul, 2) TillerClutch, 3) genoa lead adjustable from the tiller position.

BTW, all the sailboat hardware manufacturers can put together a system like Garhauer's, and most already have package available. I pieced one together that is more appropriate for my small boat. The final cost was quite a bit less than Garhauer's. I'm eager to see how well it works. Stay tuned!

Don Guillette · Mar 20, 2016

JW: This is for all listers reading this thread. Over the years I can't tell you how many time skippers have asked me to come aboard their boats to help them with their sail trim. When I step aboard the first thing I look at is the fairleads -- most are rusted in place. The next thing I check, especially if it's a Catalina, is the outhaul -- generally that's stuck in place also. All that took me 30 seconds and I then have a pretty good idea what I'm dealing with. Those 2 controls are the most important sail trim controls for the jib and mainsail and if they're inoperable they are like the broken clock -- their position is right for one point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all others. With the sail trim controls for the mainsail, some adjust either draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. The jib on a masthead rig is the engine and the fairleads are the most important adjustment because unlike the mainsail controls, when you move a fairlead you're adjusting ALL FOUR OF THE ELEMENTS AT THE SAME TIME.

Pin type fairleads follow an old adage " folk (sailors) will do what's easy and not what's hard". Pin type adjustment is hard and hence sailors don't adjustment them and then they wonder why they're not getting 10% efficiency out of their boat.

Jackdaw · Mar 20, 2016

Don Guillette said:
Anyway, how's this for a suggestion for fairlead adjustment. What your looking for is an "even break" of the sail from top to bottom. It's hard to see but once you see it you won't forget it and you can see it each time you tack. I'm sure jackdaw can explain this better than I can but here's how you do it. As you proceed through your tack, just before you go head to wind the sail will "break". If the foot flutters, the bottom luff or the bottom telltales break first -- move the leads aft. If the leech flutters, the top luffs or the top telltales break first -- move the fairleads forward. Gene, give this a try and I don't think you'll run out of track in the process.

Each time you tack you should go through this process. The crewman controlling the sheet that he's about to cut can call the "break" and the crewman on the other side can make the fairlead adjustment before he starts cranking in the sheet. Sounds like a lot to do but it's not and there's plenty of time to accomplish the adjustment especially if you have a Garhauer adjustable fairlead system, which I wouldn't be without. In fact, it was the first mod I made on any sailboat I owned.

This process works just fine, but perhaps a slightly better way is to go close-hauled and in proper trim, and then have the driver luff up just slightly, until you get an inner tell-tail to start to flutter. Them move the car per Don's advice.

When off the wind, ease the sheet slightly until you get the same flutter. Adjust the lead angle then come back on trim.

All of this points to the fact that remotely adjustable jib cars are one of the most overlooked sail control, mostly because only a few builders put them on the boat from the factory. Don's point is spot-on, 90% of sailors never move them, and don't know why they should.