You may want to have a engine survey done by a engine tech as most surveyor only look at it but not realy check it over ie compression, fuel filters, oil test etc. A oil test is only $60 and will tell you if you have any internal problem.
Buying process question - opinions wanted
- Thread starter Richard Theyerl
- Start date
Chill Richard, there is not going to be a line of serious people looking to buy a +40yo boat without a sea trial. And if the owner pushes the sale without one it is a very very good reason to pull back. You could spend the time while you wait for the season to change by hiring an engine mechanic, and a marine electrician to give it a good look.
RE: Surveyors. Surveyors will only tell you things are "serviceable", and ID major problems that represent danger or non-compliance with insurance requirements, not "this engine is at the end of its useful life", or "cost to update electronics will be an estimated $X). You are going to want that team assembled anyway for when you become the new owner, right? So bring them on and use them.
RE: Surveyors. Surveyors will only tell you things are "serviceable", and ID major problems that represent danger or non-compliance with insurance requirements, not "this engine is at the end of its useful life", or "cost to update electronics will be an estimated $X). You are going to want that team assembled anyway for when you become the new owner, right? So bring them on and use them.
Richard,
As others have commented with their experiences, you really need to do a sea trial to check the engine & drive train under load. The sea trial is important to check all the operational aspects under sail and power as well as how it handles / sails.
With regards to how to handle the deposit, I wouldn't offer more than 5% as a deposit and would arrange for an escrow agent, attorney, or banker to hold the deposit as you are not using a broker. I would also state in the bill of sale (if you decide to purchase) that the sale is a private sale between you and the present owner. Many state & local government tax departments won't tax the transaction if it is a private or casual sale; the fact that it is a private sale may save you some tax expenses. When I was purchasing my boat a few years ago, Boats US actually offered a service to complete the deposit and sales transaction for a nominal cost; however, the owner and I completed the transaction before a notary and called it a day.
Also, If the boat is US Coast Guard documented or if you intend to document an undocumented vessel, be sure to download the Coast Guard sales form and have it completed and notarized at the time of sale.
As others have commented with their experiences, you really need to do a sea trial to check the engine & drive train under load. The sea trial is important to check all the operational aspects under sail and power as well as how it handles / sails.
With regards to how to handle the deposit, I wouldn't offer more than 5% as a deposit and would arrange for an escrow agent, attorney, or banker to hold the deposit as you are not using a broker. I would also state in the bill of sale (if you decide to purchase) that the sale is a private sale between you and the present owner. Many state & local government tax departments won't tax the transaction if it is a private or casual sale; the fact that it is a private sale may save you some tax expenses. When I was purchasing my boat a few years ago, Boats US actually offered a service to complete the deposit and sales transaction for a nominal cost; however, the owner and I completed the transaction before a notary and called it a day.
Also, If the boat is US Coast Guard documented or if you intend to document an undocumented vessel, be sure to download the Coast Guard sales form and have it completed and notarized at the time of sale.
I can't remember the last time I sea trialed a boat. After my own initial survey and one by another (insurance won't allow me to survey my own boat) I make the deal, if I still want the boat. I suppose I could miss out on some running gear problem that way, but if the boat seems to have had good to excellent maintenance and care and not been on the market too long, I'll chance it. So far, so good.
Exactly. I'm not sure what I'd learn. Either I've sailed the type before, or I can estimate the sailing characteristics based on the design. A little internet research will let you know of quirky sailing flaws probably better that you would be able to suss out in a 2 hour sail. Everything else (condition-wise) will show up during a shore inspection.
Also, newer designed are typically better sorted than old.
Also, if it looks good it probably sails good. 90% of the truly horrible sailing boats I've been on were ugly, ungraceful beasts. I'd mention some but I'd probably get a time-out.
Net-net, I would not turn one down, but the ability to sail a particular boat before purchase is not a hard requirement for me.
I believe the sea trial to be imperative in the inspection of all the mechanical aspects of the vessel. You can't find out what is wrong unless the vessel is underway and all the machinery is operated in normal use of the vessel. That includes the loads imparted on standing and running rigging. In two out of three purchases I have found more than one unsatisfactory item that was repaired or caused a renegotiation. It can only help to ensure you know what you are purchasing, warts and all.
Normally, I would think that a price could not be "agreed upon" without the contingencies that go with it in place. So, it's not clear how you can make an offer and have agreed price, and then later ask whether or not purchase should be contingent on a [satisfactory] sea trial. It's sound like the deal is not really in place at this point, and if not--then wait until spring to buy the boat; it will most likely still be there.
I can see your point, in particular on a 43 year old boat. Of the 10+ boats I've owned, only one of them was older than 10 years. All of them in very good shape. That might color my perspective.
Well I believe Capta was born on the quarter deck of the Essex, has seen it all, and taken most of it apart one way or the other! But for a guy buying his first big boat and doing it without a broker - a sea trial is in order. Big boats are an assemblage of complex interconnected electro-mechanical systems. You need to see them work together in real time to know what you are buying into.
Assuming you mean by shore "in the water," unless the buyer has the PO run the engine while on the hard. This would perhaps show an overheat condition, but since you can't run the engine in gear while out of the water without dissing the cutlass bearing, I'm not sure how this could help in a meaningful way. I consider the transmission an integral part of the boats basic systems, kinda like sails and rigging.
Just kiddin', Jack.I agree about sailing characteristics, in general. Folks who buy a boat this big without doing their research and homework about its sailing abilities have a lot more issues to deal with, eh?
We looked for an entire year for our boat, knowing this particular boat was what we wanted, so we looked at ONLY this boat. Saw some horrible examples of abuse and neglect, and made an offer on one that looked fine but didn't pass a survey. A week later we found the one we still own, but the PO was honest to say it overheated "a little bit." I had done my research and homework about the engine and learned that the 2 inch heat exchanger was questionable and found that the overheating matched the issues discussed during my homework. Once we got the boat, I pulled the heat exchanger, found a LOT of salt buildup in one of the ports, cleaned it out, and all was fine.
This could have been a deal breaker for some, or not an issue for others who didn't know about it and could be a nasty surprise for unknowledgeable new buyers.
It wasn't for me.
There are a LOT of issues when it comes to boats this size.
For our earlier C22 and C25 purchases, no issues, no survey, I knew what I was seeing and buying. The OP question leads me to assume that either he isn't this far along in the knowledge curve on boat conditions, or he is and he's just asking about the purchasing protocols.
While it's always good to ask on a forum like this, there have been many articles and probably even books written on "How to Buy a Used Boat" that would cover his issue in even greater detail than the very good replies here. A Google search would undoubtedly find them.
Good luck to the OP.
PS - I'm pretty sure BoatUS has a section devoted to this question.
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not to single anyone out, but a few replies to the OP has prompted this thought from me..
as posted here by capta, (all due respect and sorry for throwing you under the bus, but your post is the most clearly defined so I used it as an example to make my opinion)...
this is reasonable for someone who already knows a bit about boats, but for anyone giving this advice to a "first rodeo" boat owner, and telling them there is very little they or their surveyor can learn from the prospective boat by doing a sea trial, and its a waste of time, it ranks right up there amongst the worst freaking advice ever given, concerning the purchase of a boat of this type and price range... even power boaters are very seldom this stupid.
having said that, I will add that someone who knows nothing about anything to do with boats, will have no idea what they are seeing anyway.... so maybe a sea trial and survey is not something they need to spend money on in a waste of your time/sellers time doing.... just pay the man his money, get the process over with and drive away in your new boat load of whatever it happens to contain.... you can celebrate the purchase with a genuine "surprise" party in a couple days
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I agree with all the advice given even though some of it is contradictory. And when I'm elected all sailboats will be awesome, because I am smarter than everybody else and I have a great plan that will be awesome and you will love it. I will also guarantee that sea and wind conditions will always be favorable for American sailors because I have imagined an amazing technology that can make that happen. To pay for it, I will defund all climate studies and therefore save the trillions of dollars that climatologists get paid every year. If that's not enough, I'll just force the Chinese government to pay for it, but we will make it great in America, creating hundreds of thousands of awesome new jobs.
Seriously, may I offer a different perspective, that of the boat seller?
Boat shopper: "I'll want the option to buy your boat sometime after the weather gets warmer, depending on my thoughts after a sea trial. I'll give you a deposit, but it has to be refundable if I decide I don't want the boat."
Boat Owner: "Hmm, you are asking me to take the boat off the market for a few months while you think about it? I don't think so. However, I might be amenable to selling you an 2- month purchase option. That is: Boat Shopper pays Boat Owner $X for the option to buy the boat for $Y anytime before the expiration date, set at [month/day/year]. The $X paid for the option is non-refundable."
Boat Shopper: "That sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't want to do it. I've been told that it's a buyer's market and that there's no one lined up behind me that wants to buy your crappy boat."
Boat Owner: "That may be so, but it is even more reason for me to sell this fine, dream-fulfilling vessel to the first person who puts hard cash in my hand. Come back in a couple of months and if I still have the boat, you can take her for a sail."
Seriously, may I offer a different perspective, that of the boat seller?
Boat shopper: "I'll want the option to buy your boat sometime after the weather gets warmer, depending on my thoughts after a sea trial. I'll give you a deposit, but it has to be refundable if I decide I don't want the boat."
Boat Owner: "Hmm, you are asking me to take the boat off the market for a few months while you think about it? I don't think so. However, I might be amenable to selling you an 2- month purchase option. That is: Boat Shopper pays Boat Owner $X for the option to buy the boat for $Y anytime before the expiration date, set at [month/day/year]. The $X paid for the option is non-refundable."
Boat Shopper: "That sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't want to do it. I've been told that it's a buyer's market and that there's no one lined up behind me that wants to buy your crappy boat."
Boat Owner: "That may be so, but it is even more reason for me to sell this fine, dream-fulfilling vessel to the first person who puts hard cash in my hand. Come back in a couple of months and if I still have the boat, you can take her for a sail."
centerline nailed it!
jwing brings up good points.
The BIGGER issue is: This is nothing new. I fail to understand how in all the years folks have been selling boats from the frozen tundra that no one has figured this out.
Gee, ya think that folks in say, Chicago or up in Minnesota haven't been doing this for decades? Everywhere boats are hauled for the winter - they do this all the time.
To the OP, try doing some more research. The answers are out there (even if they may not be right here).
Good luck.
jwing brings up good points.
The BIGGER issue is: This is nothing new. I fail to understand how in all the years folks have been selling boats from the frozen tundra that no one has figured this out.
Gee, ya think that folks in say, Chicago or up in Minnesota haven't been doing this for decades? Everywhere boats are hauled for the winter - they do this all the time.
To the OP, try doing some more research. The answers are out there (even if they may not be right here).
Good luck.
I agree.... the OP needs to do his research to see if that particular model of boat fits his criteria before even thinking about a surveyor or sea trial.
I also agree that a lot of the sailing characteristics of the boat will never be seen in the sea trial, and not until a person gets a feel for the boat and gets to sailing hard will they ever be apparent...
but it's not the sailing characteristics of that hull model design that is in question, but its the overall characteristics of that particular boat in general, (good and/or bad) and if anything seems amiss while on the motor or under sail, is what we are looking for during a sea trial on a used boat...
Since you haven't made a down payment yet, just advise YOUR trusted surveyor to add into his completed survey: 'Except for those items as mentioned this boat is priced and in such condition that it should be purchased without sea trial'. When you query the surveyor about adding that in they will likely advise your best tack.
Give him a written offer detailing your price, 5% deposit to be held independently by ________. Sale is contingent on satisfactory professional survey and sea trial to be completed by XX Date. Make sure there are no liens on the boat.
Do this transaction just like a broker would handle it. You can google & download offer forms & sale forms used by professional yacht brokers from which to construct your offer sheet and bill of sale to cover all your bases. Give it to the seller and see what happens. As Gunni mentioned, boats have been sold in the North for ever and somehow it gets done. If he has the assurance of a deposit, he will know you are a serious buyer and will likely be willing to wait 6 weeks to complete the deal. Its not like he will have to wait all winter to complete the sale and he doesn't have a bunch of prospective buyers lined up to buy the boat. Believe it, he wants to get rid of the boat more than you want to buy it!
Do this transaction just like a broker would handle it. You can google & download offer forms & sale forms used by professional yacht brokers from which to construct your offer sheet and bill of sale to cover all your bases. Give it to the seller and see what happens. As Gunni mentioned, boats have been sold in the North for ever and somehow it gets done. If he has the assurance of a deposit, he will know you are a serious buyer and will likely be willing to wait 6 weeks to complete the deal. Its not like he will have to wait all winter to complete the sale and he doesn't have a bunch of prospective buyers lined up to buy the boat. Believe it, he wants to get rid of the boat more than you want to buy it!
Absolutely do a Sea Trial. How do know if the engine runs? The tranny? If the steering and rudder work? Do the sails go up and down/in and out smoothly?
If the engine turns OFF?
If the engine turns OFF?
Since @KennyG found this old thread, and there were so many great contributions, I'm sure we're all curious how this worked out. Did Richard Theyerl buy the old boat without a sea trial? Did it fall apart when put in the water? Did he just walk away ... and never sail again? This forum hasn't heard from him since Sept 2016, so perhaps it sunk?
I would imagine that given Richard's avitar he purchased the boat, "Pearson Pearson P36 sloop", whether or not he is happy with that purchase only Richard could tell us.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SEA TRIAL!!!
I recently purchased a Hunter 42 passage during the winter. I was admit that I wanted sea trials but my broker (and his also) explained that with a good survey that everything would be alright. Well this summer I have spent over 12K replacing water lines, AC units, pumps, impellers etc. On the survey it specifically states she couldn't test everything since it was not in the water.
I recently purchased a Hunter 42 passage during the winter. I was admit that I wanted sea trials but my broker (and his also) explained that with a good survey that everything would be alright. Well this summer I have spent over 12K replacing water lines, AC units, pumps, impellers etc. On the survey it specifically states she couldn't test everything since it was not in the water.