Buying process question - opinions wanted

justsomeguy · Mar 2, 2016

Richard Theyerl said:
My question is this; would you make any sale dependent on a satisfactory sea trial before having money change hands or would you rely solely on the results of a survey?

Both. Wouldn't rely on either as the sole arbiter.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/sea-trial-and-survey-friday.177437/#post-1275241

JohnVTX · Mar 2, 2016

I would not buy without a sail.

Justin_NSA · Mar 2, 2016

My $.02 The survey is about the condition of the boat. A sea trial would tell you how it sails and if there are any leaks. Are you unsure if you would like how the Pearson handles before you buy? You could get a 'feel' for that from other Pearson owners. I guess I'm saying I would buy based on the survey if I had a good feel about the boat opinions/reviews. I'm assuming you have walked the boat and approve of the layout and equipment.

Calif. Ted · Mar 2, 2016

I'm in California so a sea trial is ALWAYS part of a pre-purchase survey, how can you know the engine and drivetrain actually work ? What if it steers sideways like a car with a bad front end ? How long until the water thaws ?

markwbird · Mar 2, 2016

Depends on price, overall condition of the boat and the results of the survey. If I was already familiar with the boat I might not need to sail it. I would, however want to run the engine at least long enough to find out if it overheats. I might, though, if everything else checks out. Make sure your surveyor checks it thoroughly. Make a list of issues that you want investigated.

Boomer54 · Mar 2, 2016

Go with both a survey and a lengthy sea trial. I looked at your profile and my boat is slipped (on the hard now) where you live. It looks to be an early spring there finally. It won't be long before you could sea trial the boat!

centerline · Mar 2, 2016

Richard Theyerl said:
Since it could be a while before I am able to sea trial this boat (it's supposed to snow today ) would you give the seller some earnest money? He hasn't asked for any but I also want him to understand that my intentions are to buy this boat as long as there isn't something hideous going on that I don't know about. I know that this is an elementary question but, as I wrote, this is my first rodeo.

a deposit and earnest money are two different things and the wording will hold up in court, no matter the intent or mistake in how it was written.

a substantial deposit to show you have a serious interest in buying if all systems check out, may be a reasonable gesture or requirement.
a deposit gets returned if the boat does not meet your requirements, whereas with earnest money, the entire amount is forfeited to the seller if you should decline to purchase.
even with a deposit, in the event you decline to purchase, a very small pre determined amount of it may be kept to pay for the fuel and trouble of the sea trial....
although it commonly is, you should never expect the boat ride to be free just because you decide you dont want to buy it.
also, understand clearly that I said a PRE-determined amount, that needs to be agreed on.

I wouldnt give earnest money until you are absolutely SURE you are buying the boat, and you need the seller to take it off the market and hold it for you, for a some amount of time, so you can gather the rest of the money to complete the purchase... if you dont meet your end of the agreement within that time, you lose the money and the seller still owns the boat to sell to someone else.

and short of the lake being frozen over, snow shouldnt stop a sea trial.... and you may not need a sail, but definitely a good run on the motor under full power for an good length of time... listen and look at and around the motor with a flashlight while it being ran, and feeling if the gear boxes are getting too hot... this could tell the condition of something you cant see
there are so many things that can go wrong during "the first rodeo" that I would not forgo any of the available options to insure you arent buying a boatload of hidden problems... and there WILL be some, but you want to avoid the expensive ones.
and even though most surveyors are on top of things, they are only human and can miss stuff, so the more time and "hands on" he gets with the boat, especially one that is sailing and motoring on a sea trial, the more chances there are of the hidden stuff being found.

the bigger the boat, to bigger potential there is for it to have more problems, and whether these are small problems or big problems, collectively they will require an exponentially "bigger" amount of money to repair it all...

Ken Cross · Mar 2, 2016

I'd certainly insist on a sea trial. Too many places to go wrong otherwise unless the boat was cheap enough that you are wiling to take larger risks. If it's that much cheaper ask yourself if that's because of known problems.
Ken

marke14 · Mar 2, 2016

Great points, Centerline. I will remember these when I am in the market to move up to a larger vessel!

Barnacle Bill · Mar 2, 2016

A good surveyor will do an out of the water survey and an in the water survey not necessarily in that order. Depends on where the boat is when he comes upon it. When in the water you can check the function of the engine and other items that require the boat to be in the water. Out of the water you can check the hull, keel, rudder, drive train, prop, cutlass bearing, etc. A sea trial is something you don't have to do, but it shouldn't be done, in my opinion, unless the owner doesn't care, until after the survey is complete and satisfactory. Otherwise brokers use up all their time taking people out for free sailboat rides which is often very time consuming and non productive. If the boat has a reputation for sailing ability, I don't think you really have to see if it sails well, because, as someone said, you can get good comments from previous owners (or bad). In my opinion, if the price is agreed upon and the survey is satisfactory, a deposit is in place, then the last thing you do a sea trial.

uncledom · Mar 2, 2016

You can set aside money in an escrow account for any problems that may arise on a sea trial. I did this on the last two boats. I'm glad I did on the 35s5 as there were a few minor issues that were repaired from the escrow fund and the rest went to the seller. We did use a broker in both instances but the wording for such things is boiler plate and easily copied, er written

up.

Parsons · Mar 2, 2016

Great discussion, and I really like Centerline's answers. Also, consider that one of the principle risk$ of used boats is core damage. I understand that a proper hull survey cannot be performed if there is a possibility the moisture embedded in his deck is still frozen -- http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/winter-pre-purchase-survey.169281/#post-1187636

It's also worth repeating that used sailboats is (and always has been) a buyer's market. There are not five guys with cash money waiting for you to say, "perhaps I'll wait a couple months to sail this thing"!

Steve Dion · Mar 2, 2016

Be sure to setup an escrow account. Let them be responsible for the transfer of funds/title etc.

31seahorse · Mar 2, 2016

Hello Capt Richard,
The sea trial is used to prove that all systems work properly (as they should), not to see whether you like the way the boat sails. A buyer who said, "This boat sails too slowly." or "This boat is too tender." might find themselves doing an impromptu survey of the underwater portions of the hull. By the time you make an offer on a boat you probably have been aboard the boat for a look at the layout of the interior and you probably have a strong feeling that you have found the type of boat you really want. However, we have all lusted after (and perhaps have bought) a boat whose looks have just grabbed us by the halyard!

RE: a deposit.......Without a broker in the mix I am not sure how the return of a deposit would be handled without having to pay a lawyer to become involved. There are people who might return your deposit without much of a fuss, but I wouldn't ask for my deposit back in a "concealed carry" state. Best Wishes, 31seahorse

31seahorse · Mar 2, 2016

OOPS, I forgot to mention that on a 43 year old boat you will find some things that need attention, repair, replacement, etc. That just goes with the purchase and I hope you have considered those potential expenses into your offer.

kimelmore · Mar 2, 2016

I agree and appreciate all the advice being given. I'm in the middle of purchasing a larger boat (380 Catalina) and the sea trial ended prematurely when the engine overheated rather quickly. We do have a deposit on the boat and now we wait to see if the owner wishes to do the repairs or not. So far we haven't heard from the broker yay or nay? Good luck with the boat.