Which type of keel do you prefer?

[Sandy Stone]

Very nice, but I still have reservations about the KISS factor...
Regarding a deep keel, I occasionally race on a First 40.7 with an 8' keel, and the windward ability of that boat is amazing - pointing and speed.

 

[Jackdaw]

Very nice, but I still have reservations about the KISS factor...
Regarding a deep keel, I occasionally race on a First 40.7 with an 8' keel, and the windward ability of that boat is amazing - pointing and speed.

Indeed. Our First 36.7 draws 7.5 feet. We go to wind like a witch. But sadly there is not a single NPS dock in the Apostle Islands we can go to. Trade offs.

 

[Kermit]

I prefer a keel that is attached to any boat that I'm sailing on. Especially if the sails are full.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Chesapeake Bay is shallow so skinny boats rule. My current boat draws 2.5 feet.

I love seeing different set-ups and different types of keels. The main thing that I tend to shy away from is a deep draft. Yep, it is cool to see them but, since I am so use to shallow setups, I cringe because it represents running aground to me. A friend has a 6' draft on the bay and he has found the bottom a lot.

My least favorite is a swing keel. The stories of people loosing the centerboard, the pin breaking, the cable breaking, etc would be a sort of anxiety for me. I know that you can keep it maintained and it is okay, but it still is a pain. My Hunter 22 had the swing keel and the other issue was the noise when I was anchored. Any wake at all it would make a loud noise.

 

[druid]

For performance, you can't beat a deep fin (preferably with a bulb on the bottom) but they don't go in shallow water and they're a bear downwind. The Cals (and Crown) had a nice compromise - basically a "long fin". My Ontario 32 is more of a "full" keel, and it's great and stable downwind, but doesn't point well.

I've never been a fan of the wing keel - I've passed too many of them

Of course Jack would probably want a canting keel - they're the BOMB for racing!

druid

 

[JohnVTX]

I prefer the keel that is attached to the boat I am sailing.

 

[Jackdaw]

For performance, you can't beat a deep fin (preferably with a bulb on the bottom) but they don't go in shallow water and they're a bear downwind. The Cals (and Crown) had a nice compromise - basically a "long fin". My Ontario 32 is more of a "full" keel, and it's great and stable downwind, but doesn't point well.

I've never been a fan of the wing keel - I've passed too many of them

Of course Jack would probably want a canting keel - they're the BOMB for racing!

druid

LOL true, canters are way trick for full-on race boats. Its the advantage of extra crew on the rail, without actually having to have them!

But the mechanisms are complex. If hydraulic you need a dedicated battery setup to flip it over or your motor has to be running. Manual systems (like the Minis use) and your cabin is filled with block and tackles to swing it. And it precludes a lifting keel, which I'm a big fan of.

My biggest issue: If you round UP going downwind, you've got trouble because the keel is in a position to help keep you on your side! You need to swing it before you can get up, and that time on your side can be hugely dangerous. Even the pros know what trouble this can be.

 

[rgranger]

...My least favorite is a swing keel. ...

I think Bad Ob. has demonstrated the theme here... because I get his point of view however, I love swing keel boats. I like the fact that I can beach them... and the way you can get them on a trailer and go to different sailing grounds....So... it really is going to be a personal preference based on how and where you like to sail. But B. O. is correct. You do need to do maintenance on them and they can knock at anchor (unless you pull them up some). So there is that "trade-off" again.

 

[Bosman]

I love swing keel boats. I like the fact that I can beach them... and the way you can get them on a trailer and go to different sailing grounds....So... it really is going to be a personal preference based on how and where you like to sail.

I am with rgranger on this one. I like to get off my boat in knee-deep water in the morning and go for a walk on a sandy bottom. Or simply beach the boat and have a cup of "insert your favourite beverage here" and wait for the storm to pass. Bottom line is where one is sailing. Would I take a boat with 7.5ft draft to my lake? Absolutely not. Would I cross the ocean in my swing keel S27?? Absolutely not. But I can take her to to coast for a coastal cruise and she will handle that with ease. It all depends on one's style of sailing.

 

[Jackdaw]

My least favorite is a swing keel. The stories of people loosing the centerboard, the pin breaking, the cable breaking, etc would be a sort of anxiety for me. I know that you can keep it maintained and it is okay, but it still is a pain. My Hunter 22 had the swing keel and the other issue was the noise when I was anchored. Any wake at all it would make a loud noise.

Lets at least separate the old rope or wire controlled affairs with the new highly engineered systems that use leveraged power to raise and lower the keel. These systems, while required some maintenance, are highly reliable and offer in many ways the best of both worlds. The down side is a slight increase in complexity and cost.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Oh, I love the idea used in the Hake Seaward boats. That is an impressive system. All the benefits of a deep keel, when you need it and can use it, all the advantages of the shoal draft going in the harbor. Well designed system and the only cost is a little bit of cabin space, extra money, and slightly extra maintenance.

 

[Bosman]

I know that you can keep it maintained and it is okay, but it still is a pain.

Would you drive your vehicle for 30+ years with no maintenance and except no issues? Ha! Like with anything else, if something is maintained, it will last. Drop the regular maintenance factor and do expect problems.

 

[Tom J]

Until you run aground, as in the O'Day 322; then not so good!

We went aground many times in Florida (both coasts). Fortunately, the bottom is soft, and, yes, it was hard to break the suction in soft mud with the wing keel, but we always managed. I guess you could say we learned the hard way about wind tides in Florida bays.

 

[druid]

This is going off-topic (surprise!) but there's one thing I've wondered about a canting keel: When you pull it to windward when you're sailing upwind, doesn't that reduce its lift, giving you more leeway? I mean: if you're heeling say, 20 degrees, and you cant the keel another 20 degrees, the keel is 40 degrees off vertical. which I would think would cause a lot of slippage.

druid

 

[Jackdaw]

This is going off-topic (surprise!) but there's one thing I've wondered about a canting keel: When you pull it to windward when you're sailing upwind, doesn't that reduce its lift, giving you more leeway? I mean: if you're heeling say, 20 degrees, and you cant the keel another 20 degrees, the keel is 40 degrees off vertical. which I would think would cause a lot of slippage.

druid

You're right that's what happens. Canters always have a set of dagger boards to deal with that exact thing. And they are angled slightly outboard to allows them to be as close to vertical as possible when the boat is heeled to windward.

 

[pateco]

In South Florida I would go Shoal Draft. Our canals and docks are not very deep.

 

[Maine Sail]

There is much to consider:

*Sailing performance
*Cruising ability
*Construction and groundings

Sailing Performance - On sailing performance I'd love a deep fin with bulb (but never protruding forward of the blade).

Cruising Ability - We cruise and like to gunk-hole so our longer shoal-ish fin gives us a good compromise and we can still outpoint many boats with deeper draft. When I am cruising I love my shoal-ish draft but when going up wind I always wish it could be deeper.

Construction - Lead is the only material I will consider. You simply could not pay me to own a boat with an iron keel. External bolt on is also my preference and if done correctly brick $hit house strong. I am not a fan of keel centerboards, my family owned KCB boats and I have had too many customers wind up with massive repair bills on aging boards. My uncle had his cable snap then he hit a ledge trying to get into the cove with a 11' draft, drifted backwards on it and drove the board up though the cabin sole. Even my customer with a large Alden, a beautifully constructed boat, had to do major surgery including custom made gears, pin etc. far too soon in the boats life.

I won't personally buy boats with:
Keel-Centerboards
Encapsulated ballast
Iron keels
I have owned a wing and won't likely go that route again unless everything else about the boat is spot on..

Groundings - Again here my preference is for external bolt on lead. Why? Have you ever seen a boat with internal encapsulated ballast that has t-boned a solid granite Maine ledge? That is your answer. It takes MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS to properly dry out an encapsulated ballast before a proper repair can be made. When they are incorrectly "patched up" they freeze and split. Very, very few boats with encapsulated ballast are built correctly enough to warrant a meeting with a solid granite ledge.

After over 45 years of sailing around New England and Maritime granite, watching groundings, repairing grounding damage etc.. that is where I land...

 

[Kings Gambit]

There is much to consider:

*Sailing performance
*Cruising ability
*Construction and groundings

Sailing Performance - On sailing performance I'd love a deep fin with bulb (but never protruding forward of the blade).

Cruising Ability - We cruise and like to gunk-hole so our longer shoal-ish fin gives us a good compromise and we can still outpoint many boats with deeper draft. When I am cruising I love my shoal-ish draft but when going up wind I always wish it could be deeper.

Construction - Lead is the only material I will consider. You simply could not pay me to own a boat with an iron keel. External bolt on is also my preference and if done correctly brick $hit house strong. I am not a fan of keel centerboards, my family owned KCB boats and I have had too many customers wind up with massive repair bills on aging boards. My uncle had his cable snap then he hit a ledge trying to get into the cove with a 11' draft, drifted backwards on it and drove the board up though the cabin sole. Even my customer with a large Alden, a beautifully constructed boat, had to do major surgery including custom made gears, pin etc. far too soon in the boats life.

I won't personally buy boats with:
Keel-Centerboards
Encapsulated ballast
Iron keels
I have owned a wing and won't likely go that route again unless everything else about the boat is spot on..

Groundings - Again here my preference is for external bolt on lead. Why? Have you ever seen a boat with internal encapsulated ballast that has t-boned a solid granite Maine ledge? That is your answer. It takes MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS to properly dry out an encapsulated ballast before a proper repair can be made. When they are incorrectly "patched up" they freeze and split. Very, very few boats with encapsulated ballast are built correctly enough to warrant a meeting with a solid granite ledge.

After over 45 years of sailing around New England and Maritime granite, watching groundings, repairing grounding damage etc.. that is where I land...

Dang! Here's where the proverbial blind sow picks up the infrequent acorn! Not knowing this, I still managed to acquire a boat with a fully lead, bolted-on, fairly deep keel in a place where striking not only granite but other kinds of rocks as well is entirely possible! And I lately just bought a wrench that actually fits the nuts on those bolts!

 

[shemandr]

Rob Mazza did a couple of articles in GOB magazine recently that give a good overview of the development of the fin keel. He touches on the difference between ballast and the foil functions of a keel, which is expected to perform both but can't be optimized for both.
Anyway, if I could have a foil shape of my choice I would make it as close to a Penguin flipper as possible. I was watching them swim at the New England Aquarium last month and was impressed with the maneuverability of these birds. You want lift - they've got lift. They literally fly in the water. The flipper is high aspect ratio, slightly elliptic and articulating (That's a design challenge!) But, alas no ballast.
Thank God we don't have ledges around here - they scare the poop out of me. I have found a rock and that was bad enough.
Well, it's Friday night of an impending Blizzard weekend; so sorry but more rambling posts are in the forecast.

 

[JohnVTX]

Good grief....how bout we just use the keels that are attached to the boats we sail and leave it at that?