Lazy jack to main sail cover attachment

[CptnRn]

On the B 311 that I bought this fall, it appears that the lazy jacks have been tied way to short. As a result they are holding the boom up higher above the deck, which results in a fuller mainsail shape. I think I need to adjust these so the mainsail can be flattened more.

The lazy jacks are tied onto round battens in the top edge of each side of the sail cover, there is no form of adjustment built into this system other than loosening and retying each lazy jack to the battens. This is not like any lazy jack system that I have read about in the past. The owners manual loosely describes this method of attachment but does not specify what kind of knot should be used. On my boat it appear to be nothing more than several wraps around the batten followed up with a couple of half hitches. This appears to be pulling the battens forward causing the forward end of the battens to wear through the sail cover batten pocket and protrude out of the forward end of the batten pockets. I assume this forward end should be sewn shut to keep the batten in place. The lazy jack knot wraps also appear able to slip forward along the round batten. This has torn the forward edge of a couple of the batten pocket cutouts at the lazy jack attachment points. Which is why I'm thinking that a rolling hitch would be better as they tend to grip much better.

Has anyone else experienced these problems and have any advice? I will try to remember to take a photograph of this configuration next time I get out to the boat.

 

[Gunni]

Yes, take some pictures. You have some version of the OEM Neil Pryde "lazybag" or a Doyle "stack pack". See if you can ID the manufacturer. The jacks should route to a connection on the mast or the spreaders (preferred), and back down to a cleat near your gooseneck where you can adjust tension. Sounds like someone monkeyed with the configuration.

 

[CptnRn]

I will take those photos. Attached is an diagram by Neil Pryde Sails out of the B 311 Owners manual, describing the set up. Oddly enough on my boat, each of the lower lazy jack lines have been seized together a few inches below the rings that they pass through, so the line is not free to slide thru the ring. There is no adjustment such as a cleat built in as installed or in the diagram.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I had the same problem on our lazy jack lines. I simply added a length of line at the "end" of the tackle, and tied it off with a reef knot. It's been working fine for the past 17 years. Sometimes you might have to do so on both sides.

Looking forward to your pictures to help some more.

 

[CptnRn]

Thanks Gunni and Stu, this has been helpful, I did a websearch for Neil Pryde Sails jacklines and came up with this more detailed "Lazy Bag" system description: http://www.neilprydesails.com/images/pdf/lazy_bag.pdf It describes placing several wraps of riggers tape at points along the round batten to give the jackline knots some grip which will help keep them tied in place and also recommends knots to use and on page 5 a "shortening loop" knot arrangement that will allow some adjustment at the forward most jackline attachment point. This systems as described makes much more sense to me. I will study and implement it.

I might consider some additional adjustment such as Stu suggested, after I get the original system installed and I can see how it works.

Yes it does look like someone made some uneducated modifications in the past that have messed up the original system.

 

[DougM]

I think other responders have pointed out some helpful things.
My 323 has the Pryde lazy bag . I have always had wraps of rigging tape around the battens at the attachment points for the lines. They have to run freely through the rings which will allow adjustment. I normally take a couple of turns around the batten and tie off using rolling hitches, which allows for some adjustment without completely untying.
Above, the lines are run up through the eye holes in the spreaders to cheek blocks higher up the mast, then down to cleats on the mast at approximately boom height. I have enough line to allow me to drop the bag and secure it against the boom while sailing if I desire to do so.
It's just a setup that works for me at least.

 

[Gunni]

Rather than the "shortening loop hitches" described in the manual, I prefer to have long jacklines that route to the spreaders and back down the mast to a cleat each side where the entire system can be quickly and easily slacked, as Doug describes. Being able to get the bag out of the way helps when reefing, trimming and inspecting outhaul tension.

 

[CptnRn]

DougM and Gunni, Yes the system you described is superior I think to the "shortening loop hitches". I will look at making that improvement down the road, as it requires I go up the mast. Meanwhile restoring the original system with "shortening loop hitches" is an easy and big improvement over the mess I now have.

P.S. Sorry, I made the mistake of referring to these as "jack lines" which are normally used at deck level as clip on points for a safety harness. What we are actually discussing here is a type of "lazy jack".

 

[Ron20324]

CptnRon, I'd offer that a previous owner made an educated modification that suit him- to improve the OEM setup. I did, too....
The lazy jack lines wore out fairly quickly on my 323. At the spreader, I removed the line, place a twisted D shackle in the hole with the line inside. Doug has cheeck/turning blocks on up the mast, but I ran them forward of the mast, connected to a new halyard, and ran the LJ line to a cockpit linestopper.

The sail was dropping into the cockpit in front of the bimini, so I added a 4th LJ line to the lazy jack system. I secured the line toward the rear of the boom (to capture the dropped sail), up through a new aft ring, then down to the next forward LJ connecting place. From this new ring, I went with a line up to the existing highest ring, then down to the ring that secures the front two LJs. After some trial and error adjustments in the lines, the aft 2 will self align, and the front 2 will self-align as you lower the boom.

 

[DougM]

CaptnRon:
I just looked at your lazy jack diagram, and it is certainly different from the setup on my boat.
Your diagram shows the long line aft and the short triangle forward. My rig is set up with the short triangle aft and the longer triangle forward. This helps to better contain the forward portion of the sail as it is dropped into the bag.
I kept running into the battens catching in the lazy jack lines if the sail was flogging while hoisting. Solved that issue by trimming the battens slightly so that they were completely inside the leech.

 

[CptnRn]

CptnRon, I'd offer that a previous owner made an educated modification that suit him- to improve the OEM setup. I did, too....
The lazy jack lines wore out fairly quickly on my 323. At the spreader, I removed the line, place a twisted D shackle in the hole with the line inside. Doug has cheeck/turning blocks on up the mast, but I ran them forward of the mast, connected to a new halyard, and ran the LJ line to a cockpit linestopper.

The sail was dropping into the cockpit in front of the bimini, so I added a 4th LJ line to the lazy jack system. I secured the line toward the rear of the boom (to capture the dropped sail), up through a new aft ring, then down to the next forward LJ connecting place. From this new ring, I went with a line up to the existing highest ring, then down to the ring that secures the front two LJs. After some trial and error adjustments in the lines, the aft 2 will self align, and the front 2 will self-align as you lower the boom.

I found this photo of a B 323 on the web which shows the lazy jacks way out of adjustment. I can see how this set up would result in a lot of the sail dropping off of the end of the boom into the cockpit. I get a little of that but its not a big problem.

 

[CptnRn]

CaptnRon:
I just looked at your lazy jack diagram, and it is certainly different from the setup on my boat.
Your diagram shows the long line aft and the short triangle forward. My rig is set up with the short triangle aft and the longer triangle forward. This helps to better contain the forward portion of the sail as it is dropped into the bag.
I kept running into the battens catching in the lazy jack lines if the sail was flogging while hoisting. Solved that issue by trimming the battens slightly so that they were completely inside the leech.

It definitly sounds like a modification. That diagram is not mine, it was produced by the creator of the Lazy Bag system, showing how he thought it should be set up. That is also how Neil Pryde shows it in more detail in the Lazy Bag Installation.pdf file I attached earlier. The photo I attached to the post preceding this one shows it set up this way on a B 323, although it is way out of adjustment. I'd love to see a photo of your setup sometime if you can share one.

 

[Gunni]

With the lazy jack lines run to the mast you have a narrow "throat" to the system. You could rig a lazy bag with jacklines well aft on the boom, but you need to route their top lines outboard to the spreader. That gives you the 'throat' that keeps your battens out of the jack lines when you hoist.

 

[CptnRn]

With the lazy jack lines run to the mast you have a narrow "throat" to the system. You could rig a lazy bag with jacklines well aft on the boom, but you need to route their top lines outboard to the spreader. That gives you the 'throat' that keeps your battens out of the jack lines when you hoist.

If I recall correctly I'm pretty sure that my lazy jacks dead end on each each spreader, a good distance from the mast.

 

[Caboteur]

Hi,
At the lower end of the lazy-jacks I have plastic thimbles so everything slides on the "battens". The upper lines go to a turning sheave much higher than the spreaders... less pull forward and more upward. The lines can be released and the lazy-bag rolled on either side of the boom giving full view of the mainsail; easier to adjust the foot when you see it. I thought all lazy-bags were set-up this way.

 

[reworb]

My lazy jack lines go to small turning blocks mounted on the mast then down to cleats on either side of the mast about 3 feet above the deck. I can adjust then tension on the lines or "drop" bag at the cleats. They are attached to bag by being tied through tabs which are looped on the battens, I used a figure 8 stopper knot as I make any adjustments at the cleats

 

[CptnRn]

On the B 311 that I bought this fall, it appears that the lazy jacks have been tied way to short. As a result they are holding the boom up higher above the deck, which results in a fuller mainsail shape. I think I need to adjust these so the mainsail can be flattened more.

The lazy jacks are tied onto round battens in the top edge of each side of the sail cover, there is no form of adjustment built into this system other than loosening and retying each lazy jack to the battens. This is not like any lazy jack system that I have read about in the past. The owners manual loosely describes this method of attachment but does not specify what kind of knot should be used. On my boat it appear to be nothing more than several wraps around the batten followed up with a couple of half hitches. This appears to be pulling the battens forward causing the forward end of the battens to wear through the sail cover batten pocket and protrude out of the forward end of the batten pockets. I assume this forward end should be sewn shut to keep the batten in place. The lazy jack knot wraps also appear able to slip forward along the round batten. This has torn the forward edge of a couple of the batten pocket cutouts at the lazy jack attachment points. Which is why I'm thinking that a rolling hitch would be better as they tend to grip much better.

Has anyone else experienced these problems and have any advice? I will try to remember to take a photograph of this configuration next time I get out to the boat.

Edit: I had problems uploading the photos here, until I changed to a different browser. Safari seems to work fine, Firefox did not.

Here are the photographs of the current configuration. It is so obviously wrong, I can't imagine what the previous owner was thinking. The close up that shows where the lazy jack goes through the metal ring shows how it has been tied off into a loop, which totally removes any ability to adjust these lines without having to individually retie every line. In the close up where the lazy jack is tied to the batten, you can see how its slipping has torn the batten pocket.

 

[DougM]

CaptnRon; this is the lazy jack line layout taken from my Bene323 manual. black lines sketched in because they were vague in the copied image. Mast is obviously to the right in the diagram. The lines slide freely through the rings, they aren't supposed to be knotted as they are shown in some of the previous photos.

 

[Ron20324]

Different strokes for different folks. If the PO always parked his boom at the same place, tying the 'jacks makes sense. I have to limit the drop of my boom, lest it lay on the bimini when the main is dropped. As far as the jacks sliding on the batten, other than previous offerings, you could run a line from the end of the boom, through the batten pockets, and tie it to each lazy jack to prevent it's forward movement.

 

[Caboteur]

CaptnRn,
From your photos we can see that are the rings are not doing their job because the lines are knotted, your set-up is inverted: the short /\ section should be forward and the lines should not be led through the guides in the spreaders, they should go to the turning blocks 3 meters (10 feet) higher and come back down through the guides in the spreaders and then tied to the cleats either side of the mast. On the attached photo you can't see the lines come down through the holes but you can see that the pull on the lazy bag is much more vertical than on your boat.
Pierre