customizing C 22 for Great loop cruise

[jmczzz]

I have looked at over a thousand boats in the last year including travel to go aboard and trials, studied construction details, plans, sailing reviews, and riggings, researched all the literature both on and off line I can find about boat design, construction etc and the Great Loop. researched Great Loop associations, Active Captain, looper cruising guides of every sort including the Canadian canal system.
I cannot find a boat better to do the Loop than a C22 swing Keel.
The only problem is headroom and head.
My boat needs the area around the mast step re-cored, about half the cabin top.
After due study and consideration I want to customize my existing C22 for the single purpose of making this extended cruise, as long as 2 years of more depending on my health. (I'm in pretty good shape for an old guy).
I want to raise the roof of the cabin 20 inches.
Including is to cut the mast off the 20 inches at the base and extending the compression post to allow the use of the stock sail plan.
Also replacing the problematic port lights with no hassle opening ports.
I have followed or read most of the refit threads on this forum. I am not worried about esthetics, only function. I have some experience with composite fiberglass construction.
Any thoughts, ideas comments on the necessary structural changes, dangers, or requirements would be appreciated.
I've got the boat in my boat shelter and have started cutting out the top skin around the mast step. But have decided to go "all the way" and make it more like a livable cruise boat than a sail boat. as long as she moves in a reasonably straight line and allows forward progress underway speed is not important, the only worry is windage effect from the higher house and obviously raising the center of gravity.
Even if you think this is a foolish undertaking, or even dangerous i'd take those comments into consideration as long as something constructive or reasoning is included. So go ahead guys help me do this in the best and safest way.
Help me out and follow this winter project i'll keep it posted here.
thanks, James

 

[kito]

Sounds like a major undertaking. I guess the boom will clear your new raised roof. Forget about having a boom vang, kicker etc.

 

[Skipper]

There are boats in that size and draft that would be enormously better suited for such a task. And wouldn't require extensive mods. And are not expensive.
The Bristol 24. Cape Dory/Alberg 22. Tartan 27. To name a few. These are considerably well built boats, with basic seaworthiness being the key. Setting up for cruising being the 2nd task.
And most can be had in similar price ranges as the a C22, which is stunningly amazing.
There's also the Pacific Seacraft Flicka, which may be the most seaworthy pocket cruiser. But more expensive.
If you get in any strange weather on the lakes, south Atlantic or Gulf coast, that C22 will roll like a log. Also running gear, etc not designed for the wear and requirements of extended cruising.
If you want to stick with the C22, ok be careful and have fun. Stay close to harbors. Should be a fantastic trip.
If not, maybe do some more looking. Might be the 1001th boat that fits better

 

[Jackdaw]

Two years is a LONG time to live with a outboard and a porta-pottie.

Cutting up a little boat to make it slightly bigger seems like a false economy. Think about what you LIKE about the C22, and find it in a bigger boat with standing headroom. Shoal draft? How about an oday 25 with head and inboard? They go for less than $5000k. Assuming yours will sell for something to help offset the cost, this seems like a good deal amortized over 2 years. If it does not, you might want to re-think your economics.


http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/48655

 

[bushav]

Doing the loop in a Caralina 22 will work. Just lube the trailer tires and rent an audio book at every Cracker Barrel.

Lane

 

[kito]

Does your c22 have pop top? If not, get one that does and add a canvas enclosure. It's not 20 inches higher but maybe 10". You don't sail while in the cabin anyway. Maybe you could rig your pop top to go higher. To me cutting your cabin top off and raising it 20 inches is insane. The C22 only has a foot wide by maybe 6 foot long possible standing room in the center aisle anyway. My 84 c22 has a pop top. I am 6'5", although I can't stand straight up when the top is up I can at least stretch my legs if I bend over.

 

[jmczzz]

So far 3 na sayers and one smart a$$... I have a 72 C22 no pop top, it's paid for... I don't have a vang or a kicker now and she sails just fine. All the boats i've looked at either cost multiples of $k, or require $k s and time to refit or get a trailer and drag it out of someones back yard, etc etc. Come on guys whats wrong with making what i have do this. One person said "roll like a log" I would like to know what is your support for that clever comment? I carry 17 gallons of water in jerries that sit low in the center line from mid ship to v-berth. provisions for a month or so. and 15 gals of fuel. She rides lower than the water line. How high would 20 inches of cabin sides move the CG up? I do sail with the SK down. Give me a hint as to the science not ad libs. I spent the first 6-8 years of my early manhood sharing a fo'c'sle with two smelly A.B.s it was about 5 x 8 on a merchant Liberty ship. the only advantage was we could stand up. I've spent extended time on my C22 and previously on a 23 fixed keel. I understand the dynamic. I'm 5'9'' so 20" is an outside number.
thanks, James

 

[Stu Jackson]

So far 3 na sayers and one smart a$$...

James, there might be a reason for those answers. Ask yourself again and maybe re-read them, especially Jack's.

We had a C22 for 5 years, sailed it year round and lived on the boat for long weekends and every weekend during the summers at a BIG lake, sailed SF Bay during the winters. As much as we loved that boat, it was too small for anything but extremely GOOD weather (it simply doesn't rain in N California during the summer). One long weekend it did rain (end of summer Labor Day) for three whole days - it got very small inside very quickly. We ended up buying a Catalina 25 and had that for 13 years. 3 extra feet = TWICE or more the VOLUME.

Look, I think we understand your reasoning --- you own the boat, it works (mostly).

Only YOU can decide whether you can live on it for two whole years.

Having actually owned and sailed one, with a pop top, I simply couldn't, even if I was 30 years younger.

If you think it CAN work for you, so go for it, and let us know how it goes.

Good luck.

 

[jmczzz]

Thank you for your reasoned comments. How about making the cabin a little higher. I see on the I net a guy is converting a C22 to a trawler by adding a dog house of sorts and removing the sail rig. I want to sail when possible, and understand the roll damping effect of a sail rig. I'm gonna do the cruise with or without more head room because She's all I got and I know what she is. So i was hoping for some constructive advice other than get a different boat. You at least have experience. The only 25 SK I looked at I could afford needed keel re-fit and had some other rig problems. plus it was 1300 miles one way to look at her, she was un sailable, and no place for DIY work. I spent most of my life living on the coast not here on a lake. if i could sell out even on a break even i'd be gone. But this is it. I understand the comments and take them seriously (except one).
At 73, gotta go or go to sleep for good...
thanks, James

 

[Jackdaw]

So far 3 na sayers and one smart a$$... I have a 72 C22 no pop top, it's paid for... I don't have a vang or a kicker now and she sails just fine. All the boats i've looked at either cost multiples of $k, or require $k s and time to refit or get a trailer and drag it out of someones back yard, etc etc. Come on guys whats wrong with making what i have do this. One person said "roll like a log" I would like to know what is your support for that clever comment? I carry 17 gallons of water in jerries that sit low in the center line from mid ship to v-berth. provisions for a month or so. and 15 gals of fuel. She rides lower than the water line. How high would 20 inches of cabin sides move the CG up? I do sail with the SK down. Give me a hint as to the science not ad libs. I spent the first 6-8 years of my early manhood sharing a fo'c'sle with two smelly A.B.s it was about 5 x 8 on a merchant Liberty ship. the only advantage was we could stand up. I've spent extended time on my C22 and previously on a 23 fixed keel. I understand the dynamic. I'm 5'9'' so 20" is an outside number.
thanks, James

Simply adding 20 inches to the cabin sides would barely effect the CG at all. You are only adding volume when you do that, and volume weights very little.

At the end of the day, only you will know if this makes sense to you. You do seem pretty convinced with the scheme.in general. If that's the case, ask us for advice on details of the boat mods and itinerary, and not on the overall plan. And get going! ;^)

 

[druid]

I lived aboard a Venture 22 (similar to a C22 swing keel) for 2 months, but it had a pop-top. I think I'd go the pop-top route: instead of PERMANENTLY raising the cabin-top, how about making it into a pop-top? Wouldn't be that hard, and you'd have the headroom at anchor but not the windage and poor visibility under sail.
I've often dreamed of modifying a Venture 22/C22 to make it sail better: I'd beef up the rigging, add angle-iron on the centerboard-box for strength and ballast, redo the keel for aerodynamics (hydro-dynamics?) and add some weight to it at the bottom, add a pulley system that would pull the keel cable back into a slot at the back of the keel... Oh, and if you're cruising long-term, for sure add a marine head and holding tank, water tank, pressure water (easy and cheap to do), decent stove...

druid

 

[jmczzz]

good points jack. i wanted to know about windage and stability. i'm cutting in my shed today. Its really about what I can do, Not continue to spin my wheels looking for the perfect fit. Thanks, James

 

[bushav]

I retract my smart a$$ comment but you have to admit the entire loop could be done jumping from one Cracker Barrel to the next! At least that is how my parents travel.

Lane

 

[jmczzz]

Druid, I am wondering what would i have to do to make a pop top work on a old style no pop c22? i see one For $100 in the ads. Will my old style hatch opening work and hold it?

 

[jmczzz]

Sorry I over reacted Lane. I want to just float not drive...Thanks James

 

[druid]

Druid, I am wondering what would i have to do to make a pop top work on a old style no pop c22? i see one For $100 in the ads. Will my old style hatch opening work and hold it?

Hmmm.... you might be able to retro-fit. I was thinking of just doing it: cut an area off the cabin top, put in some rods or something to hold it up, maybe sew up a canvas cover to go around it. You might have to re-do the top of the hatch cover, and make up some kind of lip around the hole to keep rain, etc. out. For a Reasonable Fee, LSumpter Consulting could do you up a design... )

druid

 

[druid]

Here's a discussion on permanent pilothouse vs pop-top: http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/pop-top.156836/page-2

 

[Skipper]

One person said "roll like a log" I would like to know what is your support for that clever comment?

Definitely a Cat 22. And this is in good weather.

Also, in the Gulf:
http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/04/watch_this_sailboat_experience.html
The above is the description of the video below.

At 2:35 in the vid, a Catalina 22 comes into view. Then disappears and is lost. Another 22 had her motor swamped and required rescue.
2 sailors perished.
I was not being clever, just descriptive. Cat 22 is a fine boat, fast and fun and with good accommodations for size. Also, I am a small boat cruising advocate.
Coastal cruising can be done with a Cat 22, within running distance to a harbor. Just a bunch of day sails really, so as long as good weather and supplies, should be a great adventure.
But with 500lbs ballast (etc) I'm merely saying that other vessels might be more seaworthy, and with the draft and headroom that you need.
But if it's your boat then use it. While there will be challenges, it will likely do just fine.

 

[Jackdaw]

Definitely a Cat 22. And this is in good weather.

Also, in the Gulf:
http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/04/watch_this_sailboat_experience.html
The above is the description of the video below.

At 2:35 in the vid, a Catalina 22 comes into view. Then disappears and is lost. Another 22 had her motor swamped and required rescue.
2 sailors perished.
I was not being clever, just descriptive. Cat 22 is a fine boat, fast and fun and with good accommodations for size. Also, I am a small boat cruising advocate.
Coastal cruising can be done with a Cat 22, within running distance to a harbor. Just a bunch of day sails really, so as long as good weather and supplies, should be a great adventure.
But with 500lbs ballast (etc) I'm merely saying that other vessels might be more seaworthy, and with the draft and headroom that you need.
But if it's your boat then use it. While there will be challenges, it will likely do just fine.

Oh PLEASE.

They made SEVENTY FIVE TIMES the number of Catalina 22s than Bristol made of your boat. With that number of hulls afloat you're bound to find vids of people sailing very poorly (vid #1) or caught in violent weather (vid #2).

Are you trying to scare him?

I bet if I search hard enough I could find at least one video online of a Bristol 29 owner doing stupid things on the water! ;^)

 

[allen-deckard]

agree with jack

I can bring up at min 2 or 3 vids of very recent curise ship grounding and a very large cargo ship sinking.

I've seen horrible car wrecks of various cars doesn't mean I wont drive that particular car.

I would never even think of living on my catalina 22 for that long but what the heck I've watched that "tiney house" tv show and people are goin small these days.

Nice thing about your catalina 22 for that trip is every thing is cheep. need new sails cheep cheep along with about everything else and 80% of the stuff on the boat can still be purchased threw aftermarket venders..

So what the heck have a nut.

Will say the pop top modification I believe is a lot more than you might think. You can investigate it but being one of the few on here that has probably modified his catalina 22 more than most that mod I believe is gonna change more than would be worth the mod.