Help buying my first larger sailboat

mz4wheeler · Sep 23, 2015

Re: buying a larger sailboat

Just a couple of comments:

You say your budget is up to 50K, but is that with a loan, or cash? A wise sailor once told me that if you can't pay cash for a boat, you really can't afford it. There will be so many other expenses (moorage, storage, repairs, upgrades, insurance) and to ALSO have a mortgage, bad news IMHO. Don't be sucked into the so-called "second home" tax advantage.

Essentials for Puget Sound:
Washington is for the most part is COLD. Your new boat should have some sort of heater, not counting the red-dot that comes with most boats. Have (at minimum) a forced air heating system or better, a webasto that heats the cabin and hot water.

You'll absolutely *NEED* a windlass for a 34 foot boat!

Comforts that (at least I) think are essentials.
GPS - A spare tablet with navionics is a good backup.
AIS - (receiver) - Lots of freighters that go through the strait!
EPIRB - I have one, can't be too safe.
Autopilot - Where would I be w/o this!! This is #1 in my book.
Inverter - It's nice to use my drill/vacuum if I need to!
Radar - Nice to have for sure

Walk-through transom.
I absolutely abhor sailboats that have those almost vertical rear ladders. I once chartered an older 34 Catalina and watching my 60+ sister struggle with that ladder was unbearable.

Insurance. Bind with your homeowners, with an umbrella policy. IMHO, boatUS insurance quotes were outrageous. I use Pemco. Call them first, make sure they'll cover you with your limited larger boat experience.

dziedzicmj · Sep 23, 2015

Nobody mentioned this so far, but when you select a boat to buy, pick one that has all (or almost all) features that you want. On the market, the electronics, sails, other equipment etc. don't add that much to the price of the boat, so buy one that has all of these things included.

Certain things are easy to add (e.g. a new chartplotter), but for example, if you want to have a furler, you are probably better of finding a boat with it already installed than replacing your stay and the sails and installing it yourself.

Another thing that also seldom comes up: the initial cost of an older boat is usually just a fraction of your total cost. You would be spending on repairs, upgrades and maintenance a lot, until you reach the point when the boats is up to shape that you like it.

scotmcpherson · Sep 23, 2015

bffatcat said:
Im a New England sailor and not familiar with your area. I do have over 50 years sailing experience. My comments 1. Do not buy a sailboat that is built to sell for a low price. 2. look for a boat from a well thought of builder. A few examples are Pearson, Bristol, C&C, Tartan. and finally, I would stay away from those heavy long keel types. example In the 70`s and 80`s the Westsail 32 was very popular boat. You don`t see to many of them any more. The obvious reason: They are very slow. I could go on with a lot more comments, but I will leave it at that Good luck!

Well that depends on your use. A full keel isn't designed to win races, it's designed to stay stable and be comfortable and predictable in cruising conditions. Iow, when the wind and sea are driving, a full keel will stay moving in the same direction and not turn on the tops of waves.

dhays · Sep 23, 2015

mz4wheeler said:
You say your budget is up to 50K, but is that with a loan, or cash? A wise sailor once told me that if you can't pay cash for a boat, you really can't afford it. There will be so many other expenses (moorage, storage, repairs, upgrades, insurance) and to ALSO have a mortgage, bad news IMHO. Don't be sucked into the so-called "second home" tax advantage.

yeah, debt is bad. Having said that.... I owe money on my C400. However, I paid cash for my slip.

Essentials for Puget Sound:
Washington is for the most part is COLD. Your new boat should have some sort of heater, not counting the red-dot that comes with most boats. Have (at minimum) a forced air heating system or better, a webasto that heats the cabin and hot water.

I grew up sailing and racing on Puget Sound (Gig Harbor and Tacoma) in smaller boats that didn't have any heat. It does get cold. Our C36 had a Webasto heater and we enjoyed it. When we bought our C400 from SoCal, it didn't have a heater. It was one of the first things we installed after the first winter with the boat. Again, a Webasto. I like the furnace, but it isn't necessary. We don't have any way to heat the hot water while on the hook but frankly don't miss it. When the engine runs it heats the water and it stays hot enough for a shower the following morning.[/quote]

You'll absolutely *NEED* a windlass for a 34 foot boat!

Again, I like it it and it could be argued that I need it because I am old and have a bad back. But for a young guy, it isn't necessary IMO.

Comforts that (at least I) think are essentials.
GPS - A spare tablet with navionics is a good backup.
AIS - (receiver) - Lots of freighters that go through the strait!
EPIRB - I have one, can't be too safe.
Autopilot - Where would I be w/o this!! This is #1 in my book.
Inverter - It's nice to use my drill/vacuum if I need to!
Radar - Nice to have for sure

Yes, all stuff nice to have, but for the OP they are likely not deal breakers. I don't have an AIS, EPIRB, or Inverter. I would like AIS and rarely use the Radar.

Walk-through transom.
I absolutely abhor sailboats that have those almost vertical rear ladders. I once chartered an older 34 Catalina and watching my 60+ sister struggle with that ladder was unbearable.

Meh, I don't think so. We have a walk through transom and it is nice when boarding the dinghy. However, for someone looking to move up in size for the first time, requiring a walk through transom means eliminating a lot of older designs and thereby increasing the cost.

mz4wheeler offers some great thoughts and suggestions. Ultimately, it comes down to preference and cost.

I do disagree with bffcat who recommends against buying a boat from a builder who built the boat to a price point. There are a lot of older production sailboats out there built by companies that built a decent boat at a decent price. There is no reason to look at a Mercedes that you can't afford when a decent Kia will do.

scotmcpherson · Sep 24, 2015

I disagree about the windlass. Once you get into boats that carry heavier anchors which also means heavier and often longer chain, you will sincerely wish you had one no matter what you age.

Couple that with being anchored more than a day or two without lifting the anchor and you may find it impossible to get the anchor out of the sand when clams and such have decided to make their home around your flukes. Plenty of times I have had to dive down to dig the anchor out of the sand. And I don't mean a fully buried anchor, I just mean one that's been there a while. I couldn't have lifted that anchor out by hand if I stood there all day pulling on it.

Bill Roosa · Sep 24, 2015

Never try and pull an anchor out by hand. Motor over it taking the slack out of the rode and as you pass vertically over the anchor snub the rode. The inertia of the boat will pull it out easily. You siltt have to haul the anchor up but breaking it fee is done.

Kings Gambit · Sep 24, 2015

scotmcpherson said:
I disagree about the windlass. Once you get into boats that carry heavier anchors which also means heavier and often longer chain, you will sincerely wish you had one no matter what you age.

Couple that with being anchored more than a day or two without lifting the anchor and you may find it impossible to get the anchor out of the sand when clams and such have decided to make their home around your flukes. Plenty of times I have had to dive down to dig the anchor out of the sand. And I don't mean a fully buried anchor, I just mean one that's been there a while. I couldn't have lifted that anchor out by hand if I stood there all day pulling on it.

You can easily get by w/o a windlass on a 34-ft boat if not using chain. When I've wanted to be "lighter" racing the Bavaria 38E to Ensenada the 400 lbs of chain and the 45-lb CQR comes off and is replaced with an FX-16 Fortress and 300 ft of 9/16" 3-strand nylon rode. The windlass is not used at all when deploying and recovering that ground tackle. Of course, you have to get your hands wet if not using rubber gloves! And, as said above, nobody pulls an anchor from the mud or sand using the back

; the natural bobbing of the boat when brought up short does the work!

mz4wheeler · Sep 24, 2015

Kings Gambit said:
When I've wanted to be "lighter" racing the Bavaria 38E to Ensenada the 400 lbs of chain and the 45-lb CQR comes off

Ugh... Try raising 400 LBS of anchor chain w/o a windlass.

The reason why I said a windlass is REQUIRED because it allows a more heavier anchor/rode to be deployed.

Sure, for the sake of convenience and weight you can go lighter and get away with no windlass and a smaller anchor, but a wise man prepares for the inevitable impending windstorm that you'll be stuck in, with your wife and kids, hoping your light anchor doesn't drag.

However, if you are using all rope, I suppose you could use one of your winches (never tried it).

Kings Gambit · Sep 24, 2015

mz4wheeler said:
Ugh... Try raising 400 LBS of anchor chain w/o a windlass.

The reason why I said a windlass is REQUIRED because it allows a more heavier anchor/rode to be deployed.

Sure, for the sake of convenience and weight you can go lighter and get away with no windlass and a smaller anchor, but a wise man prepares for the inevitable impending windstorm that you'll be stuck in, with your wife and kids, hoping your light anchor doesn't drag.

However, if you are using all rope, I suppose you could use one of your winches (never tried it).

Please read again: when the chain is off the boat I have no need of the windlass; when the chain is on, I do; of course. In any event, not all 400 lbs is out all the time at every stop.

Tally Ho · Sep 24, 2015

Lots of good advice so far, but remember YMMV. So pick what YOU like.....
Here are my 2 boat purchases: first boat as a brand new sailor was a 1996 Hunter 280. Light boat, not much of a cabin, but low maintenance, large cockpit and a great boat to learn on. Just right for learning to sail single-handed, large cockpit for when we had crew, and a cabin I could sleep in, and even cook in if I wanted to. The biggest draw as a new sailor was the age and overall great condition of the boat... I was scared to death of buying a boat that I spent more time repairing than sailing.

Sailed her for about 5 seasons. Learned a lot, and eventually got comfortable with maintaining an "older" boat (and it does take more maintenance).

Recently moved up to a 1988 O'Day 322, primarily because I wanted a 30+ footer, and really like the cabin layout and room. I did have to add a few things to easily single-hand (lazy-jacks), but her than that, she had all the stuff I like / need:
-diesel inboard
- furling headsail
- lazy jacks on main to help in lowering sail
- wheel steering (I prefer wheel over tiller...but just my preference)
- autopilot (a must for me when single-handing

Neither boat had a windlass, nor a heater (other than a small electric when plugged in to shore power). I don't really miss those items, but I am a "young" 53 years old and can muscle the anchor up.

Both boats had decent instrumentation (wind, depth, speed). The new one even came with a nice chart plotter

I bought both of these boats for under $25k.

I am in the Midwest on Lake Michigan, so the boat gets hauled for the long winter...which explains why I don't need a heater.

Have fun with your purchase!

Greg

jzuk · Sep 25, 2015

I like Tally Ho's comment.
What draws us to boats often changes.

My first boat was a '83 Mirage 25.
Awesome open concept inside for its length.
The 7.5 outboard was to small so hard to motor into the wind.
Did not have time and money together (young family at the time).
Great racer/cruiser. Mirage having an overlapping history with C&C are nice and solid.

Two winters ago bought an '88 ODay 35. Had essentially what I want and all of what my wife wanted. I thinks it's a fast cruiser/racer and enjoy the boat regardless of the work I needed to put a not her. Being 35 she has lots of space for the 4 guys sailing week. A little more work (repair Autohelm and install lazyjacks) and I could try single handed sailing.

That being said sailing is my 'thing', as my wife says. So I find my eye drifting. Top of my wish list is the C&C Corvette. Being Canadian I like the WWII Corvette escort reference. Have not sailed in one but would expect something similar to an Alberg. I like the lines of the Corvette over the Alberg. Compaired to modern boats not very easy or practical, but i'm totally willing to climb that transom.

scotmcpherson · Sep 25, 2015

I think my intention was misread. I didn't mean to imply standing over the rail hauling up the anchor. Sometimes the anchor gets embedded in sand, especially when the sand is mixed with some silt and clams or other critters move in.

Motoring over the anchor is obviously the first choice, but sometimes the suction is too great and the anchor just stops the boat rather than lifting it.

This is where a windlass (or winch) comes in to play. As you tighten down on the rode, the wave action will work on the anchor and you can inch it out of the bottom. You can't do that with a simple clear belay, the anchor will pull the rope around the cleat and as the line slacks again the anchor re-beds. On a tailing winch or windlass you can keep inching it up with each tiny wave.

You've either experienced it or you haven't. Here I the eastern end of Long Island sound there is a lot of silt in the water that becomes mixed with the sandy bottom. The structure and suction of it can be fierce, and when clams move in around your anchor, motoring over the anchor isn't going to do it every time.

Scott T-Bird · Oct 29, 2015

Nice choice! Sue and I bought our boat for similar reasons about 10 years ago and we still have her. You'll learn a great deal about boat ownership and boat systems in due course. Although I am literate, I also learn much more from direct experience than by reading. You'll be surprised to find out how much there is to learn in this forum when you discover the relevance to your own boat.

Your San Juan looks very similar to our Starwind 27, except with a more canoe-shaped stern. Do you have wheel or tiller steering and what is your auxiliary engine? One thing that you might want to keep in mind, if you decide that you may ultimately be moving up in size ... don't get carried away with improvements where you will never recover the cost. The list of upgrades are endless and expensive. For some (like me) it's easy to get attached to the boat and want to put money and effort into her. If she sails well enough without improvements, you are ahead of the game. If sails are tired, though, a new suit of sails is a good place to spend money, in my opinion. I've also found that SBO chandlery is great source for just about anything you need!

kenackerman · Oct 29, 2015

Congratulations, that was the first boat I also bought over 20 ' long. Hope you have enduring fun and smooth waters!

Charlie98117 · Nov 1, 2015

dailytrek said:
S
Scott--She has a tiller and a 14 hp Yanmar. Its been successfully raced so it has all the goodies but lacks GPS. I found the Garmin echoMAP with coastal maps for less than $500 at Cabelas which I am thinking I should buy due to our occasional foggy conditions. I guess I could take it with me to my next boat. Sails are plentiful so I will not spend that cash for now.
Garmin® echoMAP™ 74dv Sonar/GPS Combo with BlueChart® g2 Costal Map

Congratulations on your new boat! I think you will have a great time with it exploring everything sailing in the northwest has to offer.

That looks like a nice unit for the money. I just finished putting in a bunch of electronics including GPS and have to say it is the best thing I've done. When sailing around here it's always good to know where you are relative to the shipping lanes, especially when questioned by the admiral. I think the 7" screen is very workable, that is what I have. I got a Raymarine touch screen unit with pinch and zoom that I really like. It also came with built in sonar but I haven't installed the transducer yet because it is a stern mount design. I've been told you can silicone the transducer to the hull and it will work but I haven't tried that yet.

Charlie98117 · Nov 1, 2015

dailytrek said:
Which Raymarine GPS/sonar model did you get? loaded with coastal nav? transducer included?

I got the a78 with Navonics Gold and wireless. http://www.anchorexpress.com/Raymar...T-100-Navionics-North-America-Gold-T70203-NAG It's a lot more expensive than the Garmin unit you found that seems to have similar functions. I could have saved some money without the wireless or sonar or with different maps. I thought perhaps I'd like to have the wireless (it's basically just a mirror screen on an ipad, might come in handy) and wasn't sure about the difference between maps so I opted on the high side. I think more information is always good so the sonar will be useful when I get around to making it work. The touch screen is a nice feature, I really like being able to zoom and drag the map across the screen with my finger.

I should add this started off just needing to replace the speed transducer paddlewheel but I decided instead to replace the old equipment with a new i70 multifunction unit that was bundled with a speed/depth/temp transducer and a wind transducer. Then decided to add the GPS at which point I thought it would be really nice to replace the old autopilot with one that could talk to the GPS. In any case, as I said installing the GPS was the best thing I've done for the boat.

jssailem · Nov 1, 2015

Congrats on your new craft. Just read this forum message tonight. Sounds like the other owners shared many good ideas. The SJ 28 is a great boat. You will have a great time exploring the islands, fjords, bays and water ways of the Puget Sound. Maybe we can meet up and share a brew, tell stories and trade repair ideas.
John

Help buying my first larger sailboat

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John