Furling jib recommendations

[MaryEllaRose]

This winter I'm planning to splurge on a CDI jib furler from Catalina Direct. However I need advice on what size jib to buy. There's no question about having my old hank on jib reworked. It's old frayed, and with the seams coming loose I don't think it's worth spending money on. I'm undecided as to what size and from where I should buy. I day sail on the west end of Lake Erie, have no plans for ever racing and, so far at least, am a fair weather sailor.
If I buy a 140% jib, will I be able to reef it by only partially unfurling it or must it be fully deployed?
From what I've been able to gather, the fore stay wire has to shortened. Is the CDI furler kit from CD worth the extra money or will I be better off buying piece meal?
Any recommendations on from whom to buy from?

Thanx,

Tom G

 

[CaptDon01]

Tom,

Personally, I'm not a fan of CDI furlers, been there, done that, wasn't worth the hassle when rigging the boat, so I sold it,( but I'm a trailer guy). Good friend of mine with the same boat as mine, keeps his MK-II in a slip, never takes the mast down, and purchased a furling 110 jib. His 150 was just too much sail and severely limited the forward visibility. He LOVES his furling jib. We mounted it about a foot up the CDI extrusion for better visibility. To correctly install a CDI furler you need to have a new forestay with a toggle on the top, (says so right in the CDI instructions). Catalina Direct has the correct new forestay. You'll need to also open the top masthead casting for the toggle to fit, a Dremel tool and a file make quick work of this.

The first photo shows the modified masthead casting for the toggle to fit. The second photo shows a new forestay with a toggle, and the last photo shows the potential of not following CDI's instructions. There were 6 strands on the cable broken, and he probably would've lost the rigging the next time he took the boat out.

Don

 

[MaryEllaRose]

Wow! Thanx for the heads up about following directions....that's one reason why I was leaning toward buying the CD kit as it would have the correct forestay and directions on installation. Whittling on the mast head shouldn't present too much of an issue. I assume that the toggle bolt is necessary to provide more strength at that point of the forestay.

Not ever having used a furler, I'm curious about your remark to the effect of "not being worth the hassle". Was that in reference to rigging the boat when launching or when under sail?

I'm not a trailer sailor, the Rose will be staying in a slip so it's just once up and down per season. However, I'm a solo sailor of limited experience and I'm hoping that the furler will make dealing with a flailing jib less of a headache.

Can the sail be "reefed" by simply rolling it up some? My existing hank on jib is a 110%. On light air days, I see other sailors on the lake with what appears to be very large jibs, usually passing me by. On windier days, their jibs seem to be not as fully deployed. Sounds like the best of both worlds. I was leaning toward a 135%, as long as I could reef it some when the wind picks up.

Again, thanx for the warning about following directions...
Tom G

 

[Stu Jackson]

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

 

[Joe]

You can purchase a furler/headsail package with all the necessary extra rigging from most sailmakers. Here's one that's very popular and reasonably priced. http://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=storeframe.html&cart_id=

There's lots of info on that site that will answer some of your concerns. Primarily, you need to learn the difference between the CDI system and the more conventional rigid foil designs.

 

[CaptDon01]

Tom,
My experience with the CDI furlers was gained from having them installed on both a Capri-18, and our C-22 MK-II. I've also had a couple other C-22's with CDI furlers. My perspective comes from a trailer-sailor's point of view. When you raise the mast, the CDI furler is already attached to the forestay, and the sail is normally rolled up on the furler. The sail being made for a furler usually comes with some type of UV shield. All this adds weight to the mast, and I've tried several methods to secure the furler, but the results were always the same, the weight wants to keep turning the mast. I rig the boat exclusively by myself, so maybe a second hand up on deck would've made it easier, but I didn't have that option. Raising the mast with just the forestay causes no twisting of the mast, and just simplifies the process. The toggle has nothing to do with strength, but acts like a universal joint at the masthead. The extra weight causes the forestay to want to bend. The only way it can move freely is forward and backward. The toggle allows the forestay to also rotate from side to side. You can see the results of the weight wanting to take a different direction in the photo in my last posting showing the bending of the cable and nicro-press loop. This is a problem more for trailer sailors that routinely drop the mast. If your intention is to rig the boat and leave the mast up, then this isn't much of an issue. Like I said, my friend LOVES his CDI furler, but he's never taken the mast down, and either had the previous owner.

I'm just an guy that pretty much likes things simple. My hanked on jib with a down-haul is simple. The sail ir lighter,(and less expensive), because I don't need a UV shield. I can loosen the adjustable backstay on a reach or a run to get a fuller sail. Plus, it's just easier and quicker for me to douse the headsail. I simply pull the sheet tight, backwind the jib, release the halyard and, and pull the downhaul line. The sail falls on the center of the foredeck, and the secured downhaul holds the sail in place on the deck. Much quicker that I could ever furl my headsail,(and I sincerely tried it for a couple years, even had a new headsail installed).

About a year ago I started experimenting with a Harken furling system. The headsail is independent of the forestay so there is no rigging issues. I can still furl the sail, but no reefing, it's all the way in, or all the way out. At the end of the day, the sail is already furled so I secure it with a bungee sail-tie. Loosen the halyard and drop the sail to the deck. Roll it up and stick it in the bag The results have been fairly positive so far, but I'm not fully convinced it beats the simplicity of my downhaul. I've attached some photos that I used in the MainBrace article I wrote about this experiment last winter.

The first photo shows our boat in the slip with the headsail furled. The other photo shows the sail furled, and let out. This model has a safe working load that exceeds the breaking strength of the 1/8" 1 X 19 cable, so it's pretty strong.

Don

 

[bushav]

We have a CDI roller furler. Last trip in 25 knot winds the ability to infinitely adjust the amount of head sail was very important. We were able to trim the tiller pressure by adjusting the amount of jib deployed.

 

[atrometer]

You want a sail +/- what you would use the most. If you have a 150 and reef to a 75 they become quite ineffective. I THINK I've also read the rigging (maybe just the older ones) are not suggested for a 150. Different boat, but I used a 120 and liked it very well for about any wind speed I would sail in. CDIs are cheaper - don't know if this has any meaning or not, there's a lot out there.

 

[allen-deckard]

Not going into detail but I do raise my mast solo with the cdi and sail installed. tied to the mast. Maybe I don't quite get the answer you gave don but anyway let me state I don't pull my boat often twice a year give or take.

Add to that as everyone well knows I have a completely different mast raising system so I can get it up with my limited abilities.....overkill yes....works for me though.

I quite honestly don't get why the forestay needs replaced. I'm wrong I know have had mine for near 5 years now without issue and have no visible wear. I don't quite get what the toggle would solve? I'm missing something I'm sure but just don't understand what the toggle would do for the system since it doesn't have movement there.

Let me make one adjustment that might make a difference. I know I keep my stays tighter than they are supposed to be. I know a lot adjust the backstay to adjust sail shape, right or wrong I don't and in turn I keep the stays tight especially the back and forestay. The reason I keep the forestay tight is I like the shape of my sail with it tight being I use a 150.

With ALL that said I wouldn't recommend not following cdi's recommendations but to the best of my knowledge I don't remember them recommending it when I bought mine but who knows maybe they did and I just have a bit of a reading comprehension issue.

I would like to know why there would be any additional movement at that attachment that wouldn't be there with a hank on though. (not sarcastic I really do want to know) I honestly don't get it.

Lastly if I trailer sailed I would have hank on sails but I don't, so, I don't.

 

[CaptDon01]

Allen,

Here is page two of the CDI manual. I've taken the liberty of highlighting the second paragraph. I guess the key word is "may", you've obviously been lucky, my experience has been different on every CDI furler I've dealt with, which includes one Capri-18, and three C-22's I've purchased with CDI furlers. The movement issue happens when the mast is being raised or lowered. Once the mast is up, and the forestay is secured, the toggles have no advantage. Think of the toggle as a universal joint. The toggle allows the forestay to move forward and backward, just like the original nicopress loop. But the toggle also allows the forestay to move side to side also. And I haven't even gotten into the issues I've had with the plastic luff extrusion on trailered boats. But again I have to say, my friend LOVES his CDI furler, but he never takes the mast down, and it's been up for years.

Don

WARNINGS – READ BEFORE INSTALLING OR USING YOUR
FURLER

Improper installation of the Flexible Furler or improper reinstallation of the
forestay can cause failure of the forestay, and could result in the loss of the
mast and injury to crew members.

PRE-INSTALLATION WARNING:
You must use toggles at both ends of the forestay. Improper toggling
may cause the forestay to fatigue due to bending stresses.

POST INSTALLATION WARNINGS & SAFETY CHECKLIST:
1. All clevis pins and cotter pins (especially turnbuckle cotter pins)
removed during installation must be replaced.
2. Turnbuckle threads must have full engagement.
3. Make sure your furler rotates freely.
4. The luff and the inside of the drum must not touch the turnbuckle
body. If they touch, furling may unscrew the turnbuckle.
5. The luff support pin must be installed, or the turnbuckle will unscrew
and cause dismasting.
6. Insure that the bearing is not jammed, as winching with a jammed
bearing will transmit torsional loads to the turnbuckle which could lead
to failure.
7. There must be at least 3” clearance on the sides and above the
halyard top fitting.

OPERATION WARNINGS & SAFETY CHECKLIST:
1. Never winch the unit without checking for jams or snarls. Winching
against an obstruction can sever or cause hidden damage to your
forestay.
2. Keep your unused halyards flipped to the after side of your spreaders
and lightly tensioned.
3. If the unit becomes hard to furl, investigate and correct the cause.
Failure to do so can lead to the failure of the forestay.

USAGE WARNINGS:
The Flexible Furler is NOT designed to be used while your boat is in the
water and passing under low clearance obstructions (bridges, power lines,
etc.) with mast tipped forward and headstay attached to the bow. Lowering
the mast in this manner is dangerous even without a furler, and can be
further complicated by the weight of the furler and the sail.

“This product is intended for use only on sailboats having masts
fixed vertically in place at all times while the boat is in the water,
wherein the mast may only be lowered in accordance with the boat
manufacturer’s instructions when the boat is on land. Any other
use of the product constitutes misuse, and may result in
damage to the product, and/or serious injury to the user.”

 

[allen-deckard]

so your saying that the side motion bending that causes the breaking of the forestay wires is when your taking it up and down? If that's the case I guess I can see where that would cause the side motion needed to break the wires.

Like I said mine comes down about 2 times a year for inspections and bottom cleaning. I just couldn't figure out why during normal usage the forestay would move side to side anymore than a hank on. Adding putting it up and down I get.

 

[Gene Neill]

About a year ago I started experimenting with a Harken furling system. The headsail is independent of the forestay so there is no rigging issues. I can still furl the sail, but no reefing, it's all the way in, or all the way out.

I'm pretty sure that would be a deal breaker for me.

 

[agprice22]

I have the CDI furler. I have added it to two boats now. I furl my genoa in higher winds and to balance the helm. It works great. The boat is actually faster when balanced. I think the weight of the foil torques the forestay at the masthead. I think the toggle is meant to relieve that.
I have put the toggle on both my installations. I had to grind the masthead clearance. The toggles work great.

 

[CaptDon01]

I'm pretty sure that would be a deal breaker for me.

Gene, it's not really any impact for me because I don't normally use my genoa,(can't even remember the last time the genoa was on the boat), it's set up on my jib.

Don

 

[allen-deckard]

ok see there don you got me all worked up and worried about that toggle. I didn't want to pull the mast down so I got the extension ladder out and shimmied up the mast to inspect it.

Looks like new. But since I know all of them are more than 6 years old and more than likely original on the boat (they look like original equipment) I'm going to replace everything in the spring when I pull the boat for hull inspection. Might put an adjustable backstay on as well just to make lowering the mast easier but not sure on that.

Anyway who knows maybe I've been really lucky. Regardless will get replaced in the spring.

 

[CaptDon01]

Holy cow Allen, didn't mean to get you that worked up....

 

[DAVA390]

HD acdi installed on my Precision 23 last year. Best money ever spent. The crew was getting little unsteady forward and her peace of mind ( and keeping her on the boat) was worth every penny. I had 3 jibs available nd wanted to use the largest but it was recommended to me to use the midsiize one to avoid difficulties or jamming while furling. My midsiize is about a 130,very happy with it.

 

[MaryEllaRose]

I'm not too concerned about raising the mast with the furler attached. My mast raising system has a very robust A-frame that attaches securely to the cabin roof and doesn't allow any side to side movement of the mast as it's being raised. Besides, my son usually helps me (at 6' 7", 275 pounds, he's as strong as a bull and twice as smart). Since the jib halyard is no longer required, the only change in the raising procedure will be to use the main sail halyard instead.
I watched a You Tube video on installing the CDI furler and it seems fairly straight forward. After reviewing the posts regarding the necessity of toggle bolts on the forestay I'll most likely buy the furler kit from CD just to avoid the hassle of getting the correct length forestay.
What I am still uncertain about is the size of the sail. Is a 135% too large to be reefed 50% to 75% should the need arise? Would a 110% be a better choice. As mentioned previously, I'm still a neophyte fair weather sailor.
Thanx for all the great advice....

Tom G

 

[CaptDon01]

Tom,
There is a big misconception that if you have a 150 on a furler, you actually have an infinite number of headsails because you can roll it up a little, maybe some more, or roll it up a lot, whatever you need. Not true. The sail is only effectively able to be reefed ~30%. That's just the design limits for the sail before it bunches up and is useless. Are you going to order it with a foam luff? (that will help).
Before I sold the CDI furler off my boat, I had a 150 genoa. It's a LOT of sail, and the C-22 performs very well with it, within wind conditions and your sailing skill. But ever since I sold the CDI set-up with a new 150 genoa, I've yet to hoist my hanked-on 150 genoa. That's been over 3 years, maybe 4 now. I sail 99.9% of the time with my ~120 jib,(it's the headsail in my little photo with my name). A 150 severely limits your forward visibility, and with the growing popularity of kayaks and paddle boards, I just want to see who's around me. If you'll notice on my photo, I also run about a 1' lanyard on the tack to help increase my forward visibility. So for me, a cruising guy, that ultimate extra .5 knot is not that important to me.
Lot's of cruisers like the 135 genoa as a good alternative. My sailing buddy with an identical boat to mine found the 150 on his CDI furler was just too much power for him sailing 99% of the time single handed. So he ordered a furling 110 jib for his CDI. We installed it with the tack about 1'-1.5' high, and he LOVES the ease of sailing, and the forward visibility.

To help show the differences, take a look at the photos. The first photo shows my buddy with his CDI furler and a raised tack on the 110 with a foam luff. The middle photo shows my hanked on jib with the lanyard on the tack. The last photo shows our boat several years ago with the new 150 when I still had the CDI furler on the boat

Good luck with your decision, but you'll have to figure what's going to be the most comfortable for you in the area where you sail.

Don

 

[MaryEllaRose]

Thanx for clarifying that misconception Don, that's exactly what I had envisioned: being able to infinitely reef a large head sail. I am intending to get the foam luff installed, having read on one sail loft's website that it will: "improve the shape of the sail when reefed." Could you expound on that and also about raising the tack, particularly in regard to the furler? Does the sail or the furler require modification?

Tom G