Outhaul tension - how much?

[uncledom]

I just went on to Amazon and ordered a sail trim guide. I am truly humbled by my lack of knowledge. I have (apparently) often been using too much outhaul, setting my jib using the telltales, letting the main out just until it luffs and then pulling it in a bit until it stops. I STILL have no idea how or when to use my topping lift OR my rigid vang:confused

Rich, at the dock you can let out your main sheet and release the vang sheet and if the boom rises you have a working piston in your rigid vang. If not see if the piston has failed or is lacking or if there is some other problem. Then you can convert that topping lift to a spare main halyard which can be very useful, even as a topping lift.

 

[Joe]

I just went on to Amazon and ordered a sail trim guide. I am truly humbled by my lack of knowledge. I have (apparently) often been using too much outhaul, setting my jib using the telltales, letting the main out just until it luffs and then pulling it in a bit until it stops. I STILL have no idea how or when to use my topping lift OR my rigid vang:confused

If you have a rigid vang you have no need for a topping lift. That's the point of a rigid vang. If you need something to stabilize and support the boom when you've put everything away. Disconnect your main halyard and clip to to the end of the boom as an opposing force to your mainsheet.

 

[uncledom]

Sorry, but your comment about the foots relation to the boom is not good advice. Proper shape based on wind speed should be created down the entire length of the sail. In lighter condition this will result in a deeper sail, and the foot will be well off the boom. That means easing the outhaul, no matter the point of sail. How far? You have to experiment. Watch your speed, and look up your sail at the angle of my picture. Have leech and body telltails. On both our boats we're lucky; we have polar charts from the designer that says how fast we should be based on wind speed. Without that sail depth when the breeze is light we can't hit our numbers.

You should check with DG. I can show you his comments in posts that you were a part of that say making the sail baggy in light air, I'm paraphrasing, is counter productive. I'm pretty sure the general rule is to flatten the sail in both very light and very heavy airs. If the windex is indicating wind forward of a beam reach I usually keep that foot close to the centerline of the boom. You need to constantly watch both halyard and out haul tension to make sure you are not too tight or loose as the wind pressure changes and most sailors discount both adjustments.

 

[uncledom]

If you have a rigid vang you have no need for a topping lift. That's the point of a rigid vang. If you need something to stabilize and support the boom when you've put everything away. Disconnect your main halyard and clip to to the end of the boom as an opposing force to your mainsheet.

Joe if you read my previous post, some Hunters come without a piston inside the rigid vang. I had to purchase and install the piston and I was the third owner of the boat so apparently two out of three people don't check their vang piston to ensure it raises the boom The point of some rigid vangs were just keep the boom from crushing the arch mounted traveler. I saw Rich has a Hunter and might have the same issue. I have in mast furling and can not move the active halyard.

 

[weinie]

You should check with DG. I can show you his comments in posts that you were a part of that say making the sail baggy in light air, I'm paraphrasing, is counter productive. I'm pretty sure the general rule is to flatten the sail in both very light and very heavy airs. If the windex is indicating wind forward of a beam reach I usually keep that foot close to the centerline of the boom. You need to constantly watch both halyard and out haul tension to make sure you are not too tight or loose as the wind pressure changes and most sailors discount both adjustments.

Flatten the sail in VERY light air... as in drifting conditions. Otherwise, the air does not have enough energy to stay attached the sail as required to generate lift. Over about 4 knots or so of true wind speed, you want that sail to have enough draft depth to power up the boat.

In heavy winds, removing the draft by tightening the outhaul will be necessary as you will want to reduce power but maintain speed. The exception would be choppy seas. Here you want enough draft to power through the waves which slow you down each time you slam into them.

Think of a big draft as low gear in a car and minimal draft as high gear.

Also, the only time you want to use a topping lift while sailing is in drift like conditions up wind where you want the boom close to the center line of the boat but you want to give the main enough twist to take advantage of the faster winds at the top of the mast whose apparent direction will be further aft than the wind down near the bottom of the sail. The mainsheet will want to pull the twist out of the sail as you try to keep the boom toward the center of the boat without the wind pressure to counter it.

 

[Jackdaw]

This discussion is why i really don't like generalized rules and cheat-sheets on sail trim. Instead:

LEARN THE FUNDAMENTALS OF SAIL MECHANICS

USE ALL YOUR CONTROLS

WATCH YOUR TELLTAILS

EXPERIMENT IN SMALL MEASURES, WATCHING YOUR SPEED

ALWAYS BE TRIMMING

 

[uncledom]

My boat weighs 24k with fuel only. I estimate 27k on any given day with water, food and crew. I'm pretty sure I trim my sails well.

 

[Jackdaw]

My boat weighs 24k with fuel only. I estimate 27k on any given day with water, food and crew. I'm pretty sure I trim my sails well.

I'm missing something.... what is that supposed to show?

 

[uncledom]

I'm missing something.... what is that supposed to show?

I guess there's just no point in explaining.

 

[Jackdaw]

I guess there's just no point in explaining.

Maybe I was looking to deep. If it's to show you can make your boat go hull speed on a reach in 16 knots of breeze, I'm not all that impressed.

 

[weinie]

Everyone thinks they know how to trim their sails...until they start racing!

Myself included.

 

[Joe]

Joe if you read my previous post, some Hunters come without a piston inside the rigid vang. I had to purchase and install the piston and I was the third owner of the boat so apparently two out of three people don't check their vang piston to ensure it raises the boom The point of some rigid vangs were just keep the boom from crushing the arch mounted traveler. I saw Rich has a Hunter and might have the same issue. I have in mast furling and can not move the active halyard.

I was commenting on richandhelen's quoted text in my post.

 

[Brian S]

I STILL have no idea how or when to use my topping lift OR my rigid vang:confused

One of the most misunderstood aspects of sail trim is "twist." The wind at the top of the mast is faster than the wind at water level, due primarily to drag. The top of the sail needs to be out more than the bottom to properly trim for this. As wind speed increases, there is less speed differential, and less twist is needed.

On boats with proper travelers, while close reaching and close hauled, leech tension and twist is controlled by the mainsheet, and angle of attack is controlled by the traveller. However, in light wind, it is common for the weight of the boom to weigh down the sail, over-tensioning the leech, and reducing twist. In higher winds, the pressure of the wind on the sail is adequate to overcome the weight of the boom. Also, in higher winds, less twist is needed anyway, so more leech tension is required anyway.

So, a proper rigid vang, or perhaps a soft vang combined with a Boomkicker, can lift up the boom. In the absence of a rigid vang or Boomkicker, an easily adjusted topping lift can also lift the boom, and allow the main to twist off.

If a topping lift is not easily adjusted on any point of sail, or if it's tied to the boom, then all it does is hold the boom up when dousing sail, and it will not aid sail trim. It also probably hooks on the leech during tacks.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Also, in higher winds, less twist is needed anyway, so more leech tension is required anyway.

Until the wind speed increases to the point where you need to de-power, which can be achieved by opening up the leech to twist the top of the sail.

 

[Brian S]

Until the wind speed increases to the point where you need to de-power, which can be achieved by opening up the leech to twist the top of the sail.

Quite right, David!