Help buying my first larger sailboat

Parsons · Sep 8, 2015

Daily, Welcome to the forum! I didn't see this in the previous comments, so: Have you considered chartering a few keel boats prior to buying? Chartering is a great way to learn an area, and what you want in a boat. Every boat is a compromise (like every house, car, etc.), and an internet forum can only guess what you and the Admiral want. After a few charters, you'll know if you (both) like: ripping along for a full day under sail, sitting in an empty anchorage (or a crowded, partying dock?) sipping cocktails, or exploring shallow coves. Each calls for a different boat with the associated tradeoffs. Be honest in what you like about the situation. There's nothing worse than owning a cramped, overbuilt, seafaring boat that can take you to Fiji, when you really like entertaining two other couples on little day sails before sun-downers back at the club. Chartering will let you get a feel for this. Think of dropping a couple thousand for a long weekend as a good investment.

scotmcpherson · Sep 8, 2015

frimi_captain said:
>>My lady does not sail but has the desire and I have the ability to teach her. Address this issue first, before investing, as your happiness will be intricately tied up with hers. She should have gone on a couple of PLEASANT extended cruises before you sink much money into a boat. I suggest getting a small cheap boat first. See if she enjoys that. Other wise you'll be doing a lot of single handed sails. Good luck

I would also recommend that you are not her instructor, that often leads to relationships breaking. Better that you buy her lessons so she can feel her skill is independent of you. Feel free to join her in these lessons. That's what I did with my girlfriend, and it's a much better situation. We had fun together treating it as an activity together.

The instructor is likely to assume you don't really have sailing experience, and that's fine. It's their job to make sure you have everything covered, but at the end they'll ask why you bothered to go through the full set of classes.

Zed · Sep 8, 2015

Would be nice if the OP would return......

PatTormey · Sep 8, 2015

You'll want to understand 'What is your minimum confront?" for living aboard and then select for performance. For example if you want a real oven or an alcohol burner, a full head with shower or will a solar shower do? Pressurized water is nice to have. Separate stateroom or sharing one cabin? (it matters if you are sailing with other people)

You'll spend more time aboard if she's comfortable.

My Ericson 25+ was a great boat but you had to make the bed before you could make the coffee.

geek_guy · Sep 8, 2015

On a similar vein to Scot. Spend days and days looking at boats. Spend time filtering out the ones that are absolutely out. THen take your lady with. I am always amazed at how differently my lady looks at a boat. If she feels that she is part of the process and her feelings are valuable. She will be excited to use it and learn.

You will likely be pretty amazed at the difference in boats. Even if they are all good boats. The only way I know to really evaluate them is to touch and feel. This process can be very exciting and fun. Think in terms of learning for much of the process. Ask questions. Many brokers are great sailors and don't mind sharing their expertise. Also an owner is likely to have been at least decent on the water. They love to tout their boat.

Stu Jackson · Sep 8, 2015

Three things to check

Like any boat, check it out, but here are three things I suggest to everyone:

1. Dipstick access. If it's a pain to do, you won't, nor would the PO. Is it easy to get to or do you have to tear the cushions out?

2. What engine? Are spare parts reasonably available? Yanmar parts are hard to get (worse in Canada). And very expensive. Not a deal killer, but... Universal engines are Kubotas so tractor stores have the parts. Yanmar are reputed to be available world-wide, Kubota not so much, but they're both tractor engines on boats in the 30-38 foot range. PS – There is a Kubota tractor dealer just outside Duncan, BC on the Island, right on Hwy 1. Great folks (July 2015).

3. Sleeping - try out the berths. Really. Our boat has what I have found to be THE largest V berth of any boat in its size class, even the C36s. Try out the berths. Try out the berths...

[FONT=&quot]Courtesy Boatman61 on cruisersforum:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Make up a list of boats that are up for sale near you that are accessible to viewing externally.. tromp the pontoons and check out the exteriors.. salty enough.. or trendy enough.. the way the exterior is maintained tells a hell of a lot.. not so much the gleaming S/S.. more the general appearance.. sloppy lines, mildewed running rigging.. the way the sails are stowed.. can tell one a lot before you even look below.. don't like it.. Scratch it..
A coupla w/ends of this you'll have a short list..
Call the brokers or owners and set up 2 viewings a day for when it suits you and then go for it.. – limit the viewings and take cameras & lotsa photos.
Get on Board.. the more knowledgeable checks out the top while the other heads below.. now some boats.. I don't know why.. but as soon as you reach the bottom of the steps its: “No Way.”
Not because its a mess.. just a kinda antipathy.. don't strike any others of the same model off the list.. unless it happens again. Its weird..
Anyway.. when you've both finished nosing around.. ask the broker or owner for some time alone together one the boat.. no excited patter/chatter or this good.. that bad..
Thats for later.. this is bonding time.. sit back.. maybe lay on the bunks.. and open up.. you'll know what I mean when it happens.. that little smile with eyes closed on both your faces means.. You've found THE Boat..
And you'll go home and start scheming how to get it yesterday...[/FONT]

QUEST13 · Sep 8, 2015

Try an older but restored boat. I havea completely restored s2 (8 meter ) center cockpit sloop for sale,now in florida keyes. It is like new,2.2 foot draft,2 cabins , fast , inboard engine. Great sails. Would be resonable live aboard. Lists for 12900, call 17404468717, leave message? Howard

Zed · Sep 8, 2015

If you are buying a boat, its like buying a house. Never do it without having a professional boat checker guy go over it. S/he will find things you never expected to be a problem, and then you can use that information to get the price down since you will have to fix them anyhoo.

Grouperhound · Sep 8, 2015

I'm of the 'Buy the biggest boat you can afford camp'. Aside from
a small runabout and a Sunfish as a kid I had very little experience sailing. I spent a week in the BVI's on a 50ft Monohull, and was hooked. That was the confidence I needed to know I could sail it and to realize that a small starter boat was not going to make any sense. I took some sailing courses and by late summer I had a new 45ft boat. I've not for one minute regretted it. If I've had any doubts it has been should I have gone even bigger.

To be fair dealing with sailing the larger boat has been relatively easy. Most cruisers are comparatively easy to sail. Docking it can be a challenge but once on the water you will actually be thankful for a larger boat. It's faster and more comfortable. I keep mine on a dock with a number of owners that bareboat charter their boats. This may sound arrogant but the 35-37ft boats now seem modest, and the sub 30's downrite tiny. If you can afford a 35ft boat then why not do it.

If I need a boost in confidence in my ability to sail a large boat I just hang out on the dock and watch my neighbors come and go. Hmmmm. I would say the most serious issue is folks not using their boats. Their abilities suffer from the lack of practice and being current. Being active is very important.

My biggest challenge has nothing to do with my sailing abilities but keeping up to annoying maintenance issues, and that would be the case with small boats too. Admittedly larger boats can have more systems. I wish for example that I would have taken the House Battery Bank and Charging System more seriously upon purchase. A better quality higher output alternator with external smart charger, solar panels, etc. I would have focused my upgrade funds and attention on that, and not on Spinnakers and adjustable lead cars for the genoa. Being able to sail a larger boat seems like a non issue now by comparison to maintaining a boat in general.

I am confident that you will regret the purchase of a smaller boat soon after purchase. Doesn't everyone?

Ken Cross · Sep 8, 2015

Based on your location

If you keep it at Sequim Bay I'd suggest something with a more shallow keel. The water can get a bit skinny there. Once out into the Straits it all changes. I ran into Sequim Bay a year ago and our San Juan 28 (5 foot draft) was really close to the bottom in the middle of the channel. That coupled with the current made it a challenge (I could only make 1 knot against the tide going into the bay and it would have been really easy to get swept into the shallows.)

As for in the Straits, all summer long the afternoons seem to have small craft warnings. I absolutely agree you need a "blue water boat".

Case in point: here is the forecast for today one of our more calm days in Puget Sound

PZZ131-082300-
CENTRAL U.S. WATERS STRAIT OF JUAN DE FUCA-
900 AM PDT TUE SEP 8 2015

.TODAY...SE WIND 5 TO 15 KT BECOMING W. WIND WAVES 1 OR 2 FT. CHANCE
OF RAIN.
.TONIGHT...W WIND 10 TO 20 KT EASING TO 10 KT AFTER MIDNIGHT. WIND
WAVES 1 TO 3 FT.
.WED...W WIND 10 KT. WIND WAVES 1 FT.
.WED NIGHT...W WIND 10 TO 20 KT. WIND WAVES 1 TO 3 FT.
.THU THROUGH SAT...NW WIND TO 10 KT. WIND WAVES 1 FT OR LESS.

The Straits of Juan De Fuca have little in the way of hiding places.

As for doing the work yourself. I also absolutely agree. Automotive and houses are not boats, but the skills do easily transfer. I do all my own work too and this forum is an ideal place to get advice when you need it.

Sorry I didn't help much on which boat. I'd say start looking at what's on the market first. There are plenty of choices.

We did start out with smaller cheaper boats and that works, but you then must know it will be slightly more costly because you will be buying multiple boats over time. Just when you get a boat up to snuff you are starting over with a bigger one.

Ken

kenackerman · Sep 8, 2015

Many excellent comments here.

I agree with the "buy-all-the-boat-you-can-afford group. Normally, this turns out to mean one would get a smaller boat when your earnings are lower and then a larger boat when your means are more substantial and still have the sailing bug.

There is a funny thing that happens to most boats (if not all) after you put them in the water. They shrink! You can't measure how much they shrink, they just look smaller to you.

Your lady's impression of the boat carries equal weight to your own, if you desire her to be a willing & constant sailing companion to share the magical experience.

It is imperative to have the boat surveyed by the best local marine surveyor you can get. They will see things that you will not and you get a written report to study.

Despite the looks on paper of a full keel, all of the prior comments are correct when they tell you that is not a performance feature. Any one who has the experience with Hobie's you have, will like a vessel that performs rather than a pig, even with lipstick.

About brands: there is always a human preference involved in choosing among different brands of almost anything. In my view, if you want value in addition to looks and performance, Hunter is a good place to start.

Daveinet · Sep 8, 2015

I sailed for years on a Hobie 14. Moving to a monohull was an experience - partially because the first monohull I choose was not that great of a boat. But I really learned what to look for and how to shop. First thing I would do is eliminate every boat that does not rate in the low 80s Portsmouth or lower. Otherwise you will find it very frustrating to sail. Not only that, but generally boats that rate low must sail well, otherwise they will not achieve their low handicap rating. To build a boat that rates well, it doesn't happen by accident. A certain level of design thought must be put into it. There is a glut of boats that are built for glitz. Lots of bells and whistles sell boats, but you are not buying the boat to be a harbor queen. Some may think a slow stable boat is good, I beg to differ. I light fast boat reduces the sail load, as the wind load is put into speed, rather than leaning the boat. (Your Hobie is evidence of that to an extreme). In light winds, I find slow boats to be dangerous, as they may not have enough speed to steer well. You can find yourself drifting into places you never intended.
Second consideration is that you should assume that you will be single handing. Yes, the lady may be there, but unless she really gets into it, you will be effectively single handing the boat. This means getting a boat that is set up for single handing, with lines run to the back. It does limit the length of the boat, as if you need to run to the bow, you don't want it to be too far away. I would suggest looking in the 25 to 30 foot range, as it will be easier to deal with. My current boat is 24 feet, and I find it just about right for single handing. Much more would tend to keep me more busy than I want to be.

blair58 · Sep 8, 2015

Boat size would change with its intended use. Don't forget that you'll probably want to take people on a cruise with you, so the bigger the boat the better. I wouldn't even consider depth an issue! Who want to be skimming the ground anyway? 1-2 feet difference really doesn't matter, especially when most of the waterways around the san juan/gulf islands are pretty deep right off the land. Only a few bays get shallow at low tide then who cares with a cruiser? If we all could afford a bigger boat we would probably get one and forget about its deeper draft. If you want speed and shallow draft you could get a cruising cat, and venture into areas that go dry at low tide! That would be interesting. I bought a hunter 45 legend a couple of years ago, in Long Beach,CA, and I would like to sell it and get something bigger. lol

Mats ODay · Sep 8, 2015

dailytrek said:
I've sailed Hobie 16s for decades....racing them, rebuilding them, selling them but have very little experience with larger monohulls, electronics or motorized boats. I recently was certified with ASA for basic sailing and ocean cruising up to 30 footers. I'm very skilled at historic home restoration and have basic skills with car repair but want to sail more than work on my boat. I live right on the Straits of Juan De Fuca and in sailing paradise which is why I moved here a year ago. I want a sailboat primarily to day sail but also to cruise the San Juans/Pugent Sound/Canadian Islands/eventually venture out into the Pacific and provide myself and/or my partner a place to get away...even just dock side. Our winds are pretty light here most of the time. My lady does not sail but has the desire and I have the ability to teach her. I'm 6'3" and prefer not to be bent over in the cabin or folded up in the berth. Our budget for purchase expenses and getting her into shape for something to last us for a decade or longer is UP TO $50,000.
My questions are:
1. Should I get a smaller less expensive cruiser and learn more about what i want after a year or two sailing the area?
2. What are some good brands and size boat for my needs? I tend to like the blue water, full keel, classic lines of boats like the Cape George and they were/are made right here.
3. What is a good draft depth to stay under?
Thanks for the conversation!
--Christian

I have an ODay 302, 1989. Since you live close, you are welcome to come and go for a test sail. I might be selling. I'm 6" 1" tall, and there's lots of headroom for me. This will give you an idea of what you might be interested in.

gulfcoastsailor · Sep 8, 2015

Christain ~ currently YW is showing a Mason 36 in BC. Mason has a great name, but I have no idea the condition of that particular boat.

jzuk · Sep 8, 2015

I bought my second boat an ODay 35 (3rd if I count the laser) almost two years ago.
I agree withe the bigger is better, specially with your height. 30' and up will help with your comfort. Its awsome how a couple of feet can make the interior and sailing in waves more comfortable. Most full keel are older so heavier, smaller interior, less amenities (my wife LOVES those).
Your handy and since your here you can research boat projects. Having a hot water tank heated of the engine makes dinner dishes a breeze. So you can pick and choose how to spend your budget.
One comment not mentioned is dock slips. Check out if the slip is by size range. My dock fee is for 30' to 35', so I 'use' all my dock fee. And what your happy to pay year in and out.

inarathree · Sep 8, 2015

Keep in mind that the general rule of thumb is to keep 10% of your boat buying budget aside for upgrades/repairs. No matter how good it looks or works, something is going to break, and not having any reserve cash to fix it, is a bummer.

flatlander · Sep 8, 2015

Christian,

I went from zero sailing experience to Hobie 16, then from zero big boat experience to a Lancer 36, albeit after 30 and change years of virtually the same experiences as you.

Believe me, it was much harder taming a 16 than learning the nuances of sailing a keel boat. The second weekend of ownership we were on the starting line of the club race. 20-30 hours at the wheel/tiller and you'll be an old pro.

I'll second/third the buy all you can afford. I have resurrected many Hobies from the weeds myself, but it's much, much different when you're not able to wheel your new ride around your driveway by yourself, or in to your garage for some needed heat.

Look at PHRF ratings, you'll enjoy something that carries some speed.
I'd recommend a racer/cruiser, rather than vice-a-versa. Fractional rig a plus. Fin keel.
Find the most updated boat you can find. There's always stuff to tinker with and attend to, with any boat.
Whatever length you think is good enough add three feet. Our boat will sleep six, and is very comfortable for the Wife and I. More than one other couple is a crowd.

Good luck, look long and hard to find a boat that's not a compromise to what you really want. You can't "flip" a keelboat like you can a Hobie.