Trailer winch geometry

Sep 30, 2013
3,564
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Don't let the title scare you, it's not a math question. :)

After a year and a half of trailer sailing, I'm still a little perplexed by the physics of putting my boat on the trailer. I often wind up with it too far aft, requiring a second trip down the ramp. Other times I worry it's too far forward, putting too much strain on the eye.

It behaves differently on different ramp slopes of course, but I'm wondering if my trailer winch is at the correct height. I have seen pictures of other people's trailers where the winch actually pulled DOWN on the eye, which seems wrong to me, but this one pulls upward pretty darn sharply.

Is there a "standard" height for the winch in relation to the eye?

 

Squidd

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Sep 26, 2011
890
AMF Alcort Paceship PY26 Washburn Wi. Apostle Islands
My trailer is set up a bit differently, I don't use a bow chock, just have 10" of strap marked off for proper location...set exactly level with eye...

When set that way, no matter how the trailer is angled (due to depth or steepness of ramp) the boat always lines up in the correct spot forward and aft...

With the keel in its slot and the boat cradled in it's bunks it won't slide fore or aft while transporting...so bow chock would just be in the way when trying to load...

I use 4 HD straps from boat to trailer when on the road traveling...

 

caguy

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Sep 22, 2006
4,004
Catalina, Luger C-27, Adventure 30 Marina del Rey
Thus the MacGregor bump. It has more to do with the height of your tow hitch ball. I eliminated most of that problem by putting a 8 inch drop ball mount. The steeper the ramp the bigger the bump. Liquid Rollers (Silicone spray) helps reduce the need for super sonic when doing the bump.

Your winch geometry looks fine. The closer you can get the bunks to level when on the ramp the better.
 
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sunman

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Jul 29, 2009
112
Mac Mac 26D Suwannee
if this is where your boat sits on your trailer and it rides fine where its at, it would look like the winch is a lill too high, from there it would be trying to pull and lift the hull at the same time while retreaving the boat.
I re-adjusted my winch hight to be in line w/the bow eye, but that didnt solve my problem completly, I installed a keel roller, and she loads up on the trailer way better now, as she aproaches the winch, she climbs up on the keel roller and the bow eye is more in line w/the winch all the way to the bow chocks, it's an idea:)
 
Dec 23, 2008
771
Catalina 22 Central Penna.
You're better off with the winch too high than not high enough. In your photo, if the bow eye was pulled up 3 more inches the eye would come in contact with the yellow trailer chock at the winch and then the line would not be pulling up so much. With the eye in contact with the chock every-time, would be a visual guide for placing the boat in the same position on the trailer everytime.

You have realized that different slopes of the launch ramp affects how the boat reacts to the trailer. By using different placements of the bow eye in relation to the trailer bow chock you have seen different things happen when the boat is hauled from the water. For every recovery to be somewhat the same the positioning of the bow eye to the trailer must be the same. The less strap from the winch which means less distance from the winch the less the bow eye or bow will move when you haul the trailer out of the water.

When you’re at the ramp the next couple times take note on what is happening with the boat the last 18 inches of recovery. The steeper the ramp the more you have to lift the bow up to that yellow trailer chock, which you think is over-stressing the bow eye in the hull.

Think of the water which is as close to level as possible on this earth, the hull sits somewhat level on this level water, but the ramp is not level, it slopes down away from the shore line so that it gets deeper and deeper. The bow of your boat sitting level on the water touches the front of the trailer, but the stern is floating 1 to 3 feet above the back of the trailer!

Now, to eliminate some of the stress on that bow eye when winching the boat onto the trailer you must have the trailer deep enough to float the hull up close to that trailer chock. If the trailer is not deep enough in the water the hull comes in contact with the front edge of the trailer bunks and you have to drag the bottom of the hull up these bunks which in turn lifts the bow higher out of the water. If the bunks are deep enough to reduce this friction then the winch will only be lifting the weight of the bow up out of the water which is much less stress on the bow eye.

How deep, deep enough to float the hull up to last 18 inches of winching would be perfect. Pull your strap out from the winch a little less than 24 inches and if you can not connect it to the bow eye then the trailer is not deep enough. If the ramp is so steep that the bow is under the winch for that less than 24 inch hook up then a bow roller would be off a great help in lifting the bow up towards the winch. A roller will create less friction in moving the hull forward and up than sliding up the bunks!

The winch must be high to do the lift and almost level with the eye in it’s final resting place to keep the bow from lifting higher and away from the winch when the stern finally comes in contact with the back of the bunks when the trailer is pulled out of the water.

Lifting the bow sinks the stern so the boat is no longer level and starts to mirror the trailer under the water.

Look at the attached photo of friends boat, it looks funny sitting bow down but, he can recover this setup in much shallower water because the hull and trailer matches the ramp when they both are in the water. This boat owner has been trailer sailing since 1965 and does small sail boat storage and repair. He takes care of about 7 boats a season in launching and recovery every season, so you can see in the photo of what 50 years of experience has done.
 

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Sep 30, 2013
3,564
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Watercolors, you always have great info to share, thank you. Fascinating rig in the photo! I had thought about lowering the forward end of the boat and/or trailer, but I certainly never considered putting the winch below the eye like that. I'd love to watch that boat being launched and (more importantly) being retrieved.

I've never been comfortable with the way this boat loads; it always seems to put more strain on the eye than I'm comfortable with. My nervousness is exacerbated by the fact that the eye is completely inaccessible from inside the hull without doing major butchery to the anchor locker. I'd LOVE to be able to get in there and beef that sucker up 'til you could pick the entire boat up out of the water by the bow eye and dangle it in the air like a brook trout ... but that's not gonna happen any time soon.

So, the first thing I think I'll do is swap my 3" drop hitch for a 6" one. I'll also work on lowering my winch post (which will involve cutting/grinding and welding, sadly). I think both things will improve my launching/retrieving experience, in two different ways.
 

caguy

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Sep 22, 2006
4,004
Catalina, Luger C-27, Adventure 30 Marina del Rey
Watercolors, you always have great info to share, thank you. Fascinating rig in the photo! I had thought about lowering the forward end of the boat and/or trailer, but I certainly never considered putting the winch below the eye like that. I'd love to watch that boat being launched and (more importantly) being retrieved.

I've never been comfortable with the way this boat loads; it always seems to put more strain on the eye than I'm comfortable with. My nervousness is exacerbated by the fact that the eye is completely inaccessible from inside the hull without doing major butchery to the anchor locker. I'd LOVE to be able to get in there and beef that sucker up 'til you could pick the entire boat up out of the water by the bow eye and dangle it in the air like a brook trout ... but that's not gonna happen any time soon.

So, the first thing I think I'll do is swap my 3" drop hitch for a 6" one. I'll also work on lowering my winch post (which will involve cutting/grinding and welding, sadly). I think both things will improve my launching/retrieving experience, in two different ways.
Unless I misunderstood him he is suggesting having the winch above the bow eye so as to lift the bow putting the boat more inline with the bunks.
Never thought of it before but that should help. I do know from experience that lowering the hitch does make a difference. I would go with and 8" drop if possible. I use a straight ball insert for long distance. In fact the trailer manufacturer flipped my three inch insert over to give it a 3 " rise when they set me up for the 2500 mile trip back to Calf.
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,564
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Unless I misunderstood him he is suggesting having the winch above the bow eye so as to lift the bow putting the boat more inline with the bunks.
Never thought of it before but that should help. I do know from experience that lowering the hitch does make a difference. I would go with and 8" drop if possible. I use a straight ball insert for long distance. In fact the trailer manufacturer flipped my three inch insert over to give it a 3 " rise when they set me up for the 2500 mile trip back to Calf.
Yes, I'll keep the winch above the eye, just not so FAR above it. My intention is to lower the winch to the point where I can winch the eye right up to the bottom of the chock. (This will have the side effect of placing the boat slightly further forward on the trailer, which it could use).

I ordered a 6" drop hitch for now, might go with an 8" at a later time depending on how this works out. (I've been using a 3 1/4" drop up until now, which had the trailer sitting pretty much level). It also might not be too big a deal to switch hitches at the boat ramp, thereby using one hitch for traveling and another for launching.
 
Dec 23, 2008
771
Catalina 22 Central Penna.
I believe your winch is in a perfect spot, do not move it, work on getting the trailer deeper in the water so you will only be lifting the bow up to meet the trailer chock. You should NEVER try to drag the hull up the bunks very far, that adds stress on the winch, strap and bow eye, lifting the weight of the hull is only 1 half of the weight of sliding up the bunks.

If you look at the PHOTO again there appears to be a winch very low on the front post. If you can see it, there is a cable running from this winch down under the bow and straight back to the center of the keel. This cable splits into two cables running on either side of the keel and to turning blocks behind the keel outbound to the hull guides at the very end of the trailer frame. These hull guides hinge out away from the hull and after the top winch positions his bow in the proper place he reaches down and cranks the second winch pulling this low cable to pull the hull guides inboard to center the stern over the trailer.
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,564
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
I believe your winch is in a perfect spot, do not move it, work on getting the trailer deeper in the water so you will only be lifting the bow up to meet the trailer chock.

That is already the case.
 
Nov 9, 2008
1,338
Pearson-O'Day 290 Portland Maine
I don't know if I'm doing it right but it works.

When my bow eye sits on the roller . . . I'm done. Te boat doesn't bounce around any on the road. Seems to work anyway.
 
May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
This problem always bugged me....

I was thinking about adding another adjustable stop for the boat. slide it snug after boat is on flat surface. And moving the winch closer to the boat, so the roller doesn't make contact with the metal. (as it is in pic)

here's my trailer. on retrieve...
in water
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010394.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010395.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010396.jpg

on ramp, out of water
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010399.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010400.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010404-1.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h169/ftldiver2/MACGREGOR/P1010405-1.jpg

I hated doing the short stop to slide the boat up.... its nuts.













launch was never much trouble
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Yes, I'll keep the winch above the eye, just not so FAR above it. My intention is to lower the winch to the point where I can winch the eye right up to the bottom of the chock. (This will have the side effect of placing the boat slightly further forward on the trailer, which it could use).

I ordered a 6" drop hitch for now, might go with an 8" at a later time depending on how this works out. (I've been using a 3 1/4" drop up until now, which had the trailer sitting pretty much level). It also might not be too big a deal to switch hitches at the boat ramp, thereby using one hitch for traveling and another for launching.
I wouldnt go thru the time cost and trouble of changing it....because you wont see any improvements.
as has been said, every ramp is different, and no matter how different it may be, its always better to have the winch ABOVE the eye..... and when there is a support at the bow, like there is on your trailer, it takes the strain after the boat contacts it.
you may actually be able to back the winch off a click or two, but snug is better.

and with the bow stop/support, there is NO chance of getting the boat TOO far on the trailer, no matter how much you crank the winch. there is actually less strain on things when its pulled tight and kept tight (within reason), rather than having it slightly loose where it may bounce against the stop when you hit a rough patch of road.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,340
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Water colors and Centerline hit it on the nailhead. Bow eye above the winch strap and every ramp is different. Many can talk but I think these two pretty much summed it up. I have launched and retrieved many boats from small to 36 footers behind my dooley with my own trailers. Also, Make sure the ramp is long enough and if at the coast with a keel boat, go for high tide to launch. Also take a broom with you to sweep the sand and rock off the ramp as it will cause tires to spin. Should you let the wheels go off the end of the ramp God forbidding, the end of the ramps are generally washed out but carrying two 2 X 6 boards say about 5-6 feet long jamming them under the tires and against the end of the ramp, I use to be successful to get the trailer out. If the ramp is cockeyed, retrieve the boat some on the high side of the trailer as when you pull it out it should settle into the center of the trailer.
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,564
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Thanks, guys. I'll leave the post where it is and concentrate on other things.

Mr. Bill, that is a SWEET trailer! Your pics show my problem: the eye and the chock are in perfect position in the water, but once on the hard, the boat is no longer snug against the chock. And I'm super paranoid about over-winching. I don't trust the strength of this eye one little bit.

I do believe I'll see benefit in dropping the hitch, but sadly, no sailing is planned for the next week or two, so it'll be a while before I can try it. :cry: