thoughts on the condition of this sail?

[hawk232]

i am wanting to send my main off to have a second set of reef points added, but would hate to spend the $$ if the sail is worn out. I noticed a couple trips ago that the sail was kind of "baggy" at the bottom. yesterday I remembered to take a picture and take a closer look. it appears as though the sail was made that way. it has seams that taper out to allow the sail to have a "belly" (sorry for the terminology, or lake thereof). The sails are from north and were apparently bought several to 5 years ago. I know the jib is literally like brand new...

at any rate, can anyone tell me what the purpose of this would be?

the pictures is probably far from the best to tell overall condition, but if anyone has any thoughts on the condition of it, please share.

 

[kito]

I'll be curious to see what others say but something looks funny to me. It looks like the outhaul is not tight enough....same goes for the luff. Looks like it's not up far enough. The luff bolt rope should be tight. Doesn't seem to be in the picture. May not even be the correct sail for a C22.

 

[Apex]

usually called a "shelf", you are right, in that it is built in

 

[hawk232]

oh the sail trim is horrible in that pic, I am not questioning that!!! I found out after raising the sail that a slug was broken and there was NO wind at the time of that pic...

apex, what is the purpose of the "shelf"? to hold more air? I seem to have trouble getting the sail flat as the "shelf" never pulls tight

 

[higgs]

Both the luff and the foot are too loose so it is hard to see if the sail has too much bag in it. Try raising it as high as you can and get all the the llosness out of the luff and then crank on the outhaul to get the extra foot out and then repost a photo. You do not want a lot of belly in the sail - a little is fine, but too much and it will induce heel. From the photo, the fabric looks like it could be OK. Perhaps the sail needs to be recut.

 

[Joe]

What's wrong with the foot of the sail? It's not a sewn in shelf... it looks like it is doubled into the slot. What ever, it doesn't fit correctly.. Did you buy the sail or did it come with the boat?

It looks like the tack is pinched down... perhaps you have the Cunningham grommet tacked instead. On an attached foot sail, there will be some draft built in the bottom area, but it should diminish with proper outhaul tension. A shelf foot is an extra section of material sewn into the bottom that folds in on itself when the outhaul is tensioned. When tension is eased it allows the foot to belly out from the boom, the way a loose foot sail does...

Your sail simply looks like it is too big for the boat, or is improperly hoisted.
What about the hoist? Is the headboard all the way up to the black line?

Oh.. to answer your question... the sail material looks fine.... 2nd reef would be no issue. However, do yourself a favor and get rid of the "nettles"... those little ropes.... if you have slab reefing you don't really need them. If you really must use them, use colored webbing strips... angled cut ends for easier threading... tie them with a slip knot, rather than a square (reef) knot.. the contrasting color will remind you to remove them before you shake out the reef, thus avoiding major damage to your valuable sail.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Hawk,

What I see is a full length stich showing your foot shelf.

When the sail luff is raised all the way, how much distance do you have from the breadboard to the top of the mast? Around a foot is average. Also with the outhaul pulled tight, how much room to the boom end, 8"-12" is about normal.

If all the above are within these normal distances, the sail is the right size for your boat,
It may have been made for a different boat but, I would think that might be obvious.

Your luff needs to be tight for higher winds. The foot should be pulled tight to close the shelf pocket. In light winds, slacken this to open your shelf, this gives a better camber in your sail shape.

I did notice in the picture that you are in light winds. Your headsail looks too flattened for these conditions. what I call "choking the main". The sails are fighting each other & wind flow is chocked-off & speed will drop. Play with the shapes in all conditions & you'll find the sweet spots for each.

CR

 

[hawk232]

I know the sail trim is off. I had a guy and his son with me that had never sailed and I was demonstrating different controls. at the time of the pic I had the outhaul loose and that halyard was not very tight since I had a missing slug, and since it was light winds I didn't see the need to add stress to the one above and below it.

I can not make the shelf go away, even with the outhaul pulled all the way. I suppose it is possible that the sail is wrong, but I was told they were purchased for this boat, and I may even have a receipt with all of the paperwork I got. Here is the only other pic I have of the main, trimmed just a little better.

 

[Kestle]

Visually, it looks like you either have the wrong boom, or a shortened one.

Jeff

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'd ask your local North Sails dealer to send a rep out to take a look at it and follow their advise. They always seem happy to provide that service when asked.

 

[hawk232]

Jeff, why do you say that? I am not sure that it could be much longer without hitting the backstay, a couple inches at most! I know the mast is aftermarket (dwyer) so I suppose the boom could be too?

Scott, thanks for the advise, I will look into it.

 

[kito]

Visually, it looks like you either have the wrong boom, or a shortened one.

Jeff

That's what I thought at first but his last picture shows the boom almost to the backstay so it's not too short.
I have a 1984 model and my boom looks a lot different. Seems to be higher than mine too but hard to tell by the picture.

 

[Joe]

The boom's fine, that's the way the Cat 22 is designed. You might lower the front of the boom an inch or so... then rig a Cunningham through the grommet just about the tack. Stock sail dimensions for your boat are Luff 21 ft., Leech 23 ft., Foot 9' 8".

Those sails are pretty nice. Draft stripes, starcut genoa, etc.. question:::: is there a rope sewn into the foot? If not... it is a loose foot design. If there is an additional slug at the clew.. then it is definitely a loose foot. Re install the sail with the foot un attached and see how it looks.

But, I totally agree with Scott that a call to North Sails would be your best, immediate course of action.

 

[PaulK]

Agree with others that the sails look to be in fine condition, based on the pictures. They could be adjusted differently, but that's up to you, not the sails. One question on spending money for another set of reefing points: Why would you want to go out in conditions that would need a second reef? Your sailmaker might have some insight on this, but the first reef should enable you to sail in up to 20 or 25 knots of breeze. You might want to hand the jib in those conditions, if the boat will balance properly with just the reefed main in that much wind. Above 25 knots = you might want to be back at the mooring instead, and the weather report should provide enough notice to enable that. If you really want to be able to make it home in the middle of a thundersquall, a second set of reef points might be reassuring, but let's hope you never need to use it.

 

[Apex]

definitely looks like bolt rope foot, and shelf. The problem I had on the 25 was not enough purchase on the outhaul. As such, it was tough to tension. I wouldn't worry too much, enjoy the boat, and learn as others suggested the sweet spots. If you have a GPS, it is easy to tinker while sailing along and can be fun.

Is the gooseneck sliding or fixed? (can you lower the boom at the front)
If you tension the halyard before the outhaul there should be little force on sail mast slugs which is WHY when reefing (and setting the sail) you adjust halyard tension first, then outhaul.

 

[kito]

I tend to agree with Paulk. I don't feel a second reef is necessary on a C22 since it gets most of it's power from the headsail anyway. I have been out in 30kt gusts with only the jib and does just fine. With the main alone the C22 is horrible in my experience. Maybe send your pictures to North Sails and see what they say.

 

[hawk232]

excellent information everyone, thank you!!

There is a slug at the clew of the main... hmmm... I may have to look into whether there is a bolt rope foot or not. The guy that bought the sails was a big racer (hence the radial laminate sail)

In regards to outhaul vs halyard tension. I usually just leave the outhaul tight as I do not notice much difference when loosening it... should I loosen it before I raise the main to keep pressure off the slugs?

In regards to the additional set of reef points... compared to my last boat, the reef point on this sail seems really low. I tried taking the boat out on a 20-25kt day with just the main and could not get the boat to balance at all. I do not have a storm jib, only a working jib and the genoa. I was too afraid to put up the jib since I had so little control with just the main.

the gooseneck slides, should I lower it? I never knew how high to position it, so I just set it somewhere lol.

 

[hawk232]

kito, you responded while I was typing that but it seems that I should have tried jib alone on that day. my experience was the same as yours with main alone, I will not be doing that again...

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Hawk,

I assumed that the first pick was setup to show what your problems were. I only wanted to point out what I saw. I wasn't trying to be critical, just so you know pal.

Looking at your subsequent pic, That sail shape does not look right. The foot is too long, the leach is too straight-lined & it has no built in roach curve at the top incorporated into the design. This is why you can't close the foot shelf. If you purchased it used & was made for a different boat, this was not the sail to buy.

You didn't mention whether you ordered the sail or, it was from the PO (previous owner). If you ordered the sail, it was made wrong. Hopefully, this can be remedied without additional cost to you. There are default sail shapes/dimensions based on the boat you have. You can order options like a larger roach, reef points, battens etc. but the foot leach & luff dimensions are set for your particular boat design. This, was not followed.

I like what Joe said about calling North Sails. Another question, was this sail mail ordered or a local loft make this for you. I've have a North sail main but, went thru a local loft setting up my dimensions & options. This made sure I didn't have any problems.

CR

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Hawk,

From you last post question speaking about the roach interfering, My new sail was made here locally by Dennis Vellenga. I worried about too large a roach hitting my backstay when tacking. The sailmaker was also a local racer & assured me to go with a larger roach. He said that when tacking, the boom also raises during the transition & that the roach will not interfere with the backstay.

He was correct, I do have a large roach but, it never hits my backstay when tacking or jibing, just so you know pal. If having this replaced, go with the larger roach & verify the Luff, leach & foot dimensions. My guy also came out & measured onsite, I didn't trust blindly ordering online.

ps: My first boat was a C22.

CR