thoughts on the condition of this sail?

RichH · Dec 3, 2014

Hawk ...
First off your mainsail only has a 'flattening reef', not a 'full' 1st reef. Such a flattening reef will only reduce the sail area down to the level of 'top' of the curvature (belly) of the area of the shelf foot. A typical 'full' first reef will usually be in the range of 15-20% reduction of sail area. To add a full first reef on your 'crosscut' main, that #4 batten (which seems lower than 'normal') will have to be resewn to be parallel with the boom, not aligned with the sail panel seams as that would cause potential breaking of the batten or would prevent a tight roll-up of the loose area below the level of the first reef (when you tie in the 'bunts') ..... not a 'big deal', and would make reefing much easier.
As regards sail shape (bagginess, etc.), in both pics, it simply appears that the sail is not correctly tensioned along the luff and along the foot. The pic with you sailing the boat shows that you dont have proper luff tension (the aft end of the boom seems much lower than the tack ... not enough luff tension). Go to http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 and read post #1 to get the proper luff tension and then use the same description for proper foot tension (1" extra stretch per 10 ft. of foot length) 'after' a no-load stretch out. This will allow you to make a decision if those 'bolt ropes' need to be eased and reset by a sailmaker to proper length. Proper edge tension will give better/proper as-designed sail shape, especially for sailing in the higher wind ranges. Improperly raised dacron sails are ALWAYS 'baggy'.

When making your decision based on that above link ... go sailing on a beat & use only 'moderate' mainsheet tension ...... and then look at the condition of the leech area especially between battens #1 & #2 as that area of the roach will have the most designed-in 'curvature' ... and if the sail is stretched out beyond useful life - it will most likely show up there as a 'fluttering' of the leech only or mostly between battens #1 #2 when the leech line (if you have one) is tensioned and the leech is not 'cupped up' by an inch or two (too tight leech line). A leech correction to 're-taper' to correct the permanently stretched out fabric would be costly and even if performed may not bring the shape back to 'suitable'. If the leech is not fluttering between these two battens, then most probably this sail has LOTS of useful life left in it ... if the fabric and stitching is not severely UV 'burned'.

From the pics it appears that the sail material and its stitching seem fine. The chief reason to replace the sail would be indications of UV 'burn' of the material and lots of broken stitching also due to UV burn of the thread - that would indicate a 'weakened' sail caused by too much sun exposure. Take the sail to a sail loft for evaluation and to discuss adding in a proper first reef, including a repositioning of batten #4 to be parallel with the boom. Do the on-the-water evaluation as described in that offered post, first -- to see if or not you can 'stretch out' that sail to its original 'as-designed' shape, first! The reason being if the leech needs to be tightened, the luff and foot boltropes need to be eased/reset, ... all that plus the addition of a standard reef 'may' be more expensive than simply buying a 'plain vanilla' new sail.

As other have stated, boats of this size usually dont reef, they usually flatten (.... by tying-in that 'flattening reef' to reduce the amount of draft in the lower panels caused by that 'shelf foot'). If you want a deeper reef added ... go for it!!!! But if and only if the sail still has 'decent shape' and the fabric is not weakened by abuse and sunlight. ;-)

Do the evaluation as described in 'How to properly raise a Dacron Mainsail", and use the same directions to also properly stretch out that foot as well as that luff boltrope .... first. Use MORE 'stretch out' for sailing in winds higher than 12-15kts (and also for sailing in 'very light' winds too).

hope this helps.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 3, 2014

I agree, the sails look fine. You're looking at a shelf foot and it is more difficult to get the outhaul right than with a loose foot. There is little to no disadvantage to you for having a shelf foot ... indeed, some sailors prefer it. If you want, send them to sailcare sometime and they will come back looking like new. They might be able to add the 2nd reef points as well.

The photograph pretty much shows that you haven't tensioned the halyard enough. The head looks to be below the top of the jib, and it looks like it should be a few inches higher. By all means, adjust the sliding gooseneck (down) to get a better shape.

BTW, the halyard tension is not affecting the slugs. You have to tension the halyard to stretch the bolt rope appropriately. The slugs break because they are probably plastic which gets brittle in the elements. I've replaced several, but the failure is not due to halyard tension. The halyard is tensioning the bolt rope, the slugs are free to slide up or down without regard to bolt rope tension (which should be significant). The slugs fail from the sail working back and forth across tacks and jibes and there is thin strip of plastic that gets brittle and fails. You can experiment with different slug materials ... I have. Actually, my slugs are a little sticky within the slot because I painted the mast and have some excess thickness where the slugs rotate during tacks. I think that contributes to the failure. Check to see if your slugs rotate easily.

Buy the materials (slugs, webbing, thread and needles, palm leather) for replacing them on your own. It's a pretty simple fix and it will be a matter of routine maintenance if you own your sails for more than a few seasons (as most sailors do).

RichH · Dec 3, 2014

Hawk232 --- I went to your PhotoBucket site and looked at all the pics of your Mainsail.

That mainsail seems to be a very well made quality sail ... radial head with vertical mid panels towards the shelf foot.
I also see that the mast is nicely pre-bowed - perfect, and especially good for pulling 'draft' out of the mainsail.

What I see as apparent 'shape errors' is that there are 'creases' (girts) radiating from the clew and and 'fanning out' all the way up to the luff and the boom aft end is indeed sagging down ... indicating that there almost NO luff tension applied after 'just raising' this sail. If you want 'flat' youre definitely not going to get it with such a 'bagged-out' sail caused by chiefly loose luff tension.

Methinks, if the sail 'looks' good in fabric quality vs. UV burn all you have to do is add that proper luff tension and this sail is going to flatten down and the boat will then 'point' like a banshee ... and with less heel and so-called weather helm that you probably are now experiencing because of that apparent loose luff tension.

FWIW - Once you get close to the plain vanilla tension on that foot (1" for each foot of foot length)... when on a beat, adjust that outhaul in/out while watching your speedo. The correct setting for each day's wind and seastate conditions is to set/adjust that outhaul tension to get the maximum speed out of the boat! ... you can always 'over-tension' from that point to help depower/flatten (spritz some "McLube*" along the foot rope in the boom track ... to reduce friction) .... and with that 'nice' backstay adjuster you can induce some more mast bowing for even greater flattening of the mainsail.
*McLube: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?12096

Thats a nicely set up C22!!! ... nice sails too (if theres no evidence of sun 'burn' or permanently stretched-out leech panels) !!!!

Joe · Dec 3, 2014

re: shelf vs loose foot....... Hawk... here is an excerpt from this article http://www.fxsails.com/article_loosefoot.php that may help you. The reason I'm commenting is that a "shelf" foot is a very obvious addition to a mainsail.

What about mainsails with an attached foot? What advantages does this system offer? The only true advantage to this system is that it allows the mainsail to have a conventional shelf-foot built into it. A shelf foot is characteristically a lighter weight piece of cloth that is sewn along the foot of the sail from the tack to the clew. This section also connects to the mainsail along the boom, ordinarily via slides or a bolt rope. When the outhaul is loosened, the shelf opens up to produce a fuller shape in that portion of the sail. When the outhaul is tightened, the shelf essentially closes up and flattens alongside the boom. The downside is that the hardware involved (slides or bolt rope) will eventually increase the cost of maintaining the sail due to the wear and tear of these items.

Secondly, with all respect to Rich H's comment on the subject, a flattening reef would not be rigged as such.... here is a link that describes what a flattening reef is and how it is rigged. http://barnaclebillholcomb.blogspot.com/2014/06/flattening-reef-for-your-mainsail.html

So with the myriad of comments so far.. and to avoid further confusion.. I would suggest you first determine if your sail is loose footed or not.... If so, rig it correctly.. then you will find that the outhaul is a VERY, VERY useful trim tool and all your concerns will have been for naught.

RichH · Dec 3, 2014

Many arrangements and 'depth' of reefing for flattening reefs, Joe. All depends on how high the max. draft occurs in the bottom panels due to the shelf foot. .... old technology, indeed. ;-)

I think why the sail has its reef so damn low is that such a sail size would normally only have 3 battens (plus maybe 4 small aux. battens in between) ... the Owner insisted on 4, thus depressing the reef position much lower (than to near or just under that draft stripe). That this is such a 'quality' sail would also tend to indicate that the boat was raced and the previous owner didnt 'give a crap' about how much the boat heeled as he/she would have the expertise to flatten or 'blade out' as needed to keep the boat upright ... just my suspicion based on the cut of that sail and the way its constructed (radial head and vertical panels just above that shelf foot).

RichH · Dec 4, 2014

Hawk - your pics show that the foot boltrope is inside the boom groove. During your next eval .... Try tensioning that foot with the boltrope NOT in that 'groove' ... will make it easier for you to tension the outhaul.
For sailing in light to moderate wind conditions that boltrope doesnt 'have to be' in that boom groove and that groove only adds friction 'against' the outhaul.

Properly raising and 'stretching out' a woven dacron with boltrope mainsail will remove 98% of all shape errors - too much draft, draft aft, 'baggy', hooked-up leech ... stretching out to the as-designed shape: will lessen aggressive heeling, being constantly 'over-powered', 'cranky' boat.

Once you arrive at the 'as-designed' shape that the sailmaker originally cut into the sail .... when on a beat and with the boom near to and almost parallel to the boats centerline, *the area of the leech between battens #2 and #3 also close to parallel to the boats centerline ... via mainsheet tension and that leech area taking on a FLAT shape* ... the boat will now point like a banshee, will 99% of the time have 'proper twist', wont heel as much as before and will comparatively be as fast as a scalded cat. With improper tension after raising, all you get is POWER - too much power - and little 'speed abiltiy' out of the sail.
Optimum sailing is the 'balance' between power (full draft - low gear) and speed (flat shape - high gear) ... all accomplished by correctly SHAPING the 'stretchy' boltroped dacron sails after you raise them.

Good Luck. Will be awaiting your 'report'.

RichH · May 12, 2015

Thanks for the pic. The 'problem' as seen in your pic is quite obvious: the distance from the coachroof to the gooseneck (top of boom) should be in the neighborhood of 24".
Your pic shows this dimension to be approx. 36-40".
Look for 'drillings' and attachment holes for the original installation of the gooseneck and relocate the boom back to this position. In all probability the previous owner raised the gooseneck when he/she added that bimini.

RichH · May 12, 2015

Raising that gooseneck without recutting the sail is the cause of your 'hoist problems' ... such a sail will be very deep draft, draft aft ... very 'cranky' boat, heels aggressively, etc..

Im partly blind; but, I what I can see is quite a difference between the graphic geometry of a sketch of the C22 (see http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=200) and the relative graphic geometry of your last pic. And this difference of what I do SEE may be the cause of your mainsail problem.

On the sailboatdata sketch (usually a rework of a mfgrs. catalogue drawing), when I graphically measure the ratio of the "J" dimension (8ft. - from the tack to the mast) and compare the height of the deck to the gooseneck ..... that deck to gooseneck dimension equates to about roughly 24" ft.

When I do the same graphic ratio on your (last) picture, I get roughly 36" or 3 feet from the coachroof to the gooseneck.
The height of the gooseneck on your boat seems to be much higher up the mast than a the manufacturers 'catalogue' sketch .... by roughly 'a foot'.

If the sailboatdata sketch is correct, and they usually are because they are
're-works' of catalogue drawings ... it would mean that your gooseneck is mounted roughly 12" too high on the mast from where it 'should' be; and, is probably what is causing the luff of your mainsail to be longer than the space from the head of the mast to your gooseneck - your mast "P" dimension. Inotherwords, the P dimension along the mast is shorter than the luff (P) dimension of the sail !!!
http://sailboatdata.com/rig_diagram.htm

Either this was an error made during the construction of your boat (mast), or the previous owner raised the position of the gooseneck AND this may be the simple reason for the 'too long luff' mainsail.
Id suggest to contact Catalina directly and ask them for the dimension from the top of the coachroof to the top of the boom (at the gooseneck) .... as this may be the problem that is causing the 'hoist error' that you described in your original post. If my poor eyes are perceiving this correctly, its quite possible that you'll be lowering that gooseneck to mast connection by about 12".
Obviously, my graphic ratios should be repeated by actual measurement.

edit - From what I SEE, if you dont want to restore the gooseneck back to its original position, simply party 'tie in' that flattening reef which will effectively shorten the luff length of your mainsail ... and it will then FIT properly on the mast when you apply additional halyard tension to SHAPE that sail!!!!!
Again go to: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com...d.php?t=120970 and read post #1, raise that sail a SEE if when the sail is raised that the top of the boom is at 89-90° to the mast. If 'that ANGLE is greater' than 90°, it means that the sail is not correctly raised ... the luff doesnt have sufficient tension as would be applied by putting extra strain on the halyard when properly raising. The key here is that when the mainsail is raised, the top of the boom should be very close to 90° to the mast; if much greater than 90° (the aft end of the boom lower than the gooseneck) the boat will have 'weather helm' and will aggressively heel over when beating - 'cranky' boat.
;-)

RichH · May 12, 2015

Here's the underlying reason: woven dacron sails made before the present common use of 'high aspect ratio' (stretch resistant/racing) cloth and sophisticated computer plotting/cutting programs, such 'older design' sails required that after raising the sail the luff had to be 'stretched out' by an additional length (1' of extra stretch for every ~10ft. of luff length) by the halyard for the sail to take on its as designed SHAPE. Specifically for the C-22 with 'older' dacron mainsail you really MUST stretch out that luff additionally by the halyard by approximately 2 (more) inches AFTER raising the sail. Without this luff stretch-out the sail simply wont take on its designed shape ..... the bad shape in your original posting.

In these older pre-computer designed sails and sails made of 'stretchable' woven dacron (the most common dacron sails prior to ~2000), if the luff doesnt have sufficient tension applied AFTER you raise the sail, the SHAPE (amount of draft, draft location, etc. etc.) will NOT be how the sail designer intended .... and you will get the poor/bad shape as is showing in your original posting. Your sail cannot be stretched out because raising that gooseneck has resulted in the sail's luff to now be 'too-long'.

Joe · May 12, 2015

You're concerned that the boom is not level... the clew end lower than the tack end. So here is the reasoning you must consider.... if there is no wind in the sail... and you have neither a topping lift or a rigid vang.. the only thing that holds it up is the mainsail leech.

Your choice, as Rich detailed, is to lower the gooseneck for all the reasons he gave. Or install a topping lift to hold the boom up in light or, in your case, zero air.

Before you start cutting up stuff and removing things... rig a topping lift... simple and inexpensive project.

One other comment, if I may. If you find your outhaul still has to much friction to operate easily.. try changing to a smaller diameter line in the purchase system.

RichH · May 13, 2015

Sliding gooseneck !!!! Boat/mast was constructed mid 70s or before.

Do this:
Position the gooseneck as HIGH as possible on the mast;
THEN raise the sail as far as it will go without any noticeable tension in the luff, raise the sail 'just up'.
cleat the halyard ....
THEN bring the gooseneck down until the luff on the sail just starts to become 'tight'; THEN slide the gooseneck down an additional ~2+ inches

..... what happens to the mainsail?
..... does the boom intersect to the mast at about 90° degrees
..... or is the aft end of the boom lower than the gooseneck?

;-)

Gunni · May 13, 2015

hawk232 said:
in regards to the outhaul, it slides very freely now that I lubed it. I was just concerned that I cant get it tight enough due to running out of room on the boom

Lose that tackle you have attached to your clew and tie off the outhaul directly to the clew. Run the outhaul back to a single block and then forward to your cleating device. You don't need that kind of purchase on an outhaul.

RichH · May 13, 2015

With a bolt-roped shelf foot constructed mainsail you NEED that kind of purchase on the outhaul .... that foot boltrope is adjusted/operated in the exact same manner as the luff boltrope: 1" strain (stretch-out) for every 10 ft. of boltrope length in order to 'stretch' the sail to its 'as designed' shape.

Without this high purchase adjustability on a boltroped shelf foot sail, the sail will set with tooooo much amount/amplitude of draft AND your ability to flatten (without reefing) will be very limited.

How to adjust an outhaul: go onto a beat, adjust the outhaul tension in/out in order to get the 'highest' boat speed (while watching the speedo). Such (watching the speedo) will properly set the proper 'amount' draft to be equal to the 'present' day's seastate and wind conditions .... and you can powerdown (flatten or reef) from that point if needed. Release the outhaul tension at the end of the day to prevent permanently stretching the sail.

Rule of thumb: FLAT sails for 'speed sailing' in 'flat' water; well drafted (powered-up) sails for 'power punching' into chop or high waves'. Setting outhaul tension via the speedo will give you the 'optimum'.

Joe Blizzard · May 13, 2015

hawk232 said:
any ideas on why the boom is hanging low?

Bolt rope shrinkage?