Who needs a "bluewater" boat?

Kings Gambit

Kings Gambit

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Jul 27, 2011
5,086
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Since the subject of bluewater-capable boats (and skippers) versus other models comes up in this forum repeatedly, I refer anyone interested to a recent book by John Kretschmer titled: Sailing A Serious Ocean. Kretschmer is a professional sailor who does long-distance (trans-ocean) deliveries and teaches bluewater cruising/passage making to people contemplating trans-Atlantic cruises on their own sailboats. If you want to know what you need (and what you probably don't need) in a boat--read this book!
 
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centerline

centerline

.
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I read it... a good read with captivating content. I recommend it also

another very good book to really make you think about the capabilities of yourself, your boat, and guidelines on preparing both for cruising oceans, is "THE SEAWORTHY OFFSHORE SAILBOAT" by John Vigor.
its very well written using facts and common sense without the author using too much personal opinion as to the way things should be.
its easily understood a hard book to put down once you start reading it.
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

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Feb 26, 2004
22,889
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Another great book is called "Desirable & Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" or something like that.

Calder's Cruising (Cruisers?) Handbook also has good discussions.
 
Kings Gambit

Kings Gambit

.
Jul 27, 2011
5,086
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Interestingly, it's not solely about quality of construction. There are other issues. According to Kretschmer our modern boats with relatively flat bottoms, deep fin keels, and spade rudders hung by the rudder post only (i.e., no skeg) do not heave-to well if at all. I can attest. It's very difficult to get the Bavaria to heave-to properly in even 4-6 ft seas in 25 kt. The boat will try to turn its stern to the wind. If I fiddle with it enough I can get her to lay properly making slight progress to weather, but I don't trust it. If you cannot heave-to in conditions, not even necessarily really severe ones, you have to keep sailing which could wear out your crew if there are only two aboard and the auto pilot can't be trusted in those particular conditions.
 
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topcat0399

topcat0399

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Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
Kings Gambit said:
Since the subject of bluewater-capable boats (and skippers) versus other models comes up in this forum repeatedly, I refer anyone interested to a recent book by John Kretschmer titled: Sailing A Serious Ocean. Kretschmer is a professional sailor who does long-distance (trans-ocean) deliveries and teaches bluewater cruising/passage making to people contemplating trans-Atlantic cruises on their own sailboats. If you want to know what you need (and what you probably don't need) in a boat--read this book!
Click to expand
I read the book this last spring. Kretschmer obviously knows what hes about. A couple small things that annoyed me about that book. He would go on and on about his opinion on some subject near and dear to him and then cover sailing through some storm in a couple of sentences. Arrrghhh.

Great book though - he's made a living of my dream job.
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

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Feb 26, 2004
22,889
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
KG, you're right, heaving to is very important. Also important is the layout down below.
 
shemandr

shemandr

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Jan 1, 2006
7,337
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Ted Brewer was a proponent of a comfortable ride. He even coined a measure for motion comfort or sea kindliness. And if you read some of his reviews he is quite picky about some of the details of cabin layout.
Steve Daschew was different. He believed that speed was safety. The ability to evade bad weather makes a safe passage. I don't remember the name of his most notable boat but I'm sure someone on this forum does. The around the world racing boats, whether they be short handed or fully crewed have shown that with speed you can usually find the weather that suits your taste for adversity.
I'm not saying either is correct - just that a diversity of opinion exists. For me it's unlikely to matter, 'cause I don't expect to go blue water.
 
Bad Obsession

Bad Obsession

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May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
I can understand having a fast boat if you are racing. It makes sense. If you are cruising I would elect for safety and comfort.

The fast boats can beat the hell out of a crew and that is no fun. No matter how fast a boat is, sooner or later you will get caught in bad weather. At that point I want the boat build like a brick S house.
 
B

Benny17441

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May 24, 2004
7,140
CC 30 South Florida
The primary function of a an ocean crossing boat is to sustain life. In order to do that it requires a fresh water tank(s) of certain capacity and sufficient storage for food provisions for the length of the trip and size of the crew. Good navigation and communication instruments go a long way to anticipate, avoid and minimize the effects of bad weather along the route. Boat motion characteristics can differentiate a rough trip from a comfortable one. Boat integrity is the last line of defense against missed weather forecasts and unpredicted storms that will be faced. Small cockpit to minimize swamping, small metal portholes and hatches to minimize water entry points. Sturdy rigging to keep the mast up and a sound hull/keel joint. A sturdy and healthy steering mechanism and rudder are a must. A strict sailing policy that defines when to go, when to stay put and when to seek shelter.
 
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M

mitiempo

.
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
shemandr said:
Steve Dashew was different. He believed that speed was safety. The ability to evade bad weather makes a safe passage. I don't remember the name of his most notable boat but I'm sure someone on this forum does.
Click to expand
The 77' Beowulf:

 
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mitiempo

.
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Main and mizzen asymetrical spinnakers. While they flew all that sail area that day for the cameras Steve & Linda put on many thousands of miles without additional crew. About 40,000 miles in Beowulf.

Lots of interesting reading on their site: http://setsail.com/

They also are offering 2 of their books as pdf's FREE of charge, "Surviving the Storm" and "Mariner's Weather Handbook" at the bottom of this link:
http://setsail.com/weather-forecasting-storm-tactics-and-successful-cruising/
 
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centerline

centerline

.
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Kings Gambit said:
Interestingly, it's not solely about quality of construction. There are other issues. According to Kretschmer our modern boats with relatively flat bottoms, deep fin keels, and spade rudders hung by the rudder post only (i.e., no skeg) do not heave-to well if at all. I can attest. It's very difficult to get the Bavaria to heave-to properly in even 4-6 ft seas in 25 kt. The boat will try to turn its stern to the wind. If I fiddle with it enough I can get her to lay properly making slight progress to weather, but I don't trust it. If you cannot heave-to in conditions, not even necessarily really severe ones, you have to keep sailing which could wear out your crew if there are only two aboard and the auto pilot can't be trusted in those particular conditions.
Click to expand
even though Kretschmer talks about the "lack of" ability of a fin keeled/spade rudder boat to heave to, there is much more to it than that. as we know, he has his opinions about what works for him, as does anyone else who has been thru enough storms to be reasonably comfortable being offshore and knowing one is approaching. and there are very experienced "bluewater" sailors that still say a fin keel and spade rudder have no place out in the "bluewater", even though its been proven that fins and spades can be built tough enough for the task.

a fin keel is a description, but not all fin keels are the same, just as with a spade rudder, some are better/different than others.
a fin keel built for racing is deep (7-12ft) and narrow, and a fin keel built for a cruiser racer will be more in the 4-6ft deep range, and much wider (fore and aft)... the one on my boat is 8.5' long where it meets the hull, its about 3.5' deep below its attachment to the hull, and 5ft wide (fore and aft) at the bottom.... its about 15" thick at the top and 5"thick at the bottom. the boat has a 5' draft.
as opposed to a fin keel built for a racing boat.... 7ft deep, 2ft long and 3-5 inches thick....

the rudders can be just as different... so when one talks about fin keels and spade rudders being NOT not seaworthy for one reason or another, it can easily be argued...


Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing talks about the ability of different boats to heave to, and the angle at which they can do so... two exact boats of the same model, owned by two different people, may heave to very differently.
one may do it easily and the other being very difficult to balance. this can be due to the way its loaded or rigged, as the windage and the weight placement within the boat will make a big difference.

there is a lot of books, a lot of good, experianced authors, and a lot of opinions to choose from. sometimes even the experts have conflicting opinions, so we just have to keep reading and sailing so we can form our own opinion, rather than just taking another persons opinion as the facts of life aboard a boat :)
 
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