Holding tank and battery placement Mac 26D/S

Sumner · Mar 23, 2014

How many overnight on the boat and how do you plan on using it. Out 3-4 days max or more?

Sum

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

Hi Marty,

On Teliki we opted for a head with internal holding tank - but purchased the larger 5 gal model. It is a "MSD" version which has a pump out and vent fitting.
I can look up the model - CTC sells the non- MSD version but the manufacturer has a MSD kit that is easily installed.

The size has been adequate for three people for 3 to 4 days of cruising. Longer times can be had if the guys use a Tide jug...

A huge advantage of this system is that I can unscrew the fittings and just carry the tank to a dump out - or in the case of many cruising areas, a "thunder box" in the woods. Our friends with a fixed head and tank on their Mac 25 always seem to be headed for a pump out... Also, our friends have had many problems with their Jabsco head - endless gasket replacements. If you go the fixed route, Bridge yachts is advertising a fixed head (think Jabsco but not sure) for $89 at their store opening sale.

I can find pics of the pump out and vent locations used on Teliki. They are just above the head itself.

For fresh water we have a square reliance cube under the v berth (beside the battery). It has a low amperage submersible pump on the end of the pickup (pump is $10 at Princess Auto). My only complaint is that for cruising we really need a second tank that is "plumbed in" so it does not require manual transfer. I don't want valves or switches - I design for simplicity, not complexity. I saw a solution of the Mac 26 Facebook group that looks perfect - dual tank, single pump, no valves, no switches - and a single common filler (I don't want to have to "dumpster dive" into the boat with a hose to fill the tanks.

Chris

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

Forgot to mention batteries.

This is another area I think (my opinion) that gets over complicated.

On Teliki we do a lot of cruising and I have NEVER run out of power - and I don't shore charge either.
We have VHF (with AIS - we sail with freighters), chart plotter, depth/speed/temp, autopilot.
All interior lighting, nav, steaming and anchor is LED. We also have a couple iPhones and ipad on charge.
Used to have a small DVD player but replaced that with a palm sized projector.

What we don't have is a "marine stereo" as they use use far more power than everything else combined.

We also use our equipment I.e. No headlamps, candles or such.

This is all powered by a simple system as follows:

Single high capacity battery. Frees me from having to switch between two batteries and monitor charging of two (also the expense is far lower).

Two high efficiency 30 watt solar panels (60 watt total). These are half the size of my old 30 watt unit but more important are "wide sun angle". That means they don't have to pivot to track the sun. Again, simplicity - I don't want to be tending solar panels, have better things to do. And picked them up on sale at CTC (when they were changing to lower quality solar products) for $99 each. I can't remember where my controller came from (NOT CTC) but it was a US wholesales - 1/4 the price of the "solar shops". It's mounted in the aft locker, up high with drip loops (it is a sealed marine unit).

The OB also has a 6 amp output which helps when we motor (which isn't all that often).

There is a lot of advice and personal preference regarding power systems. You can do an "energy audit" and design to that (for example).

My advice would be to avoid "over analyzing" - put in a simple system - and try it. You can always add more batteries, switches and cables later. That was my approach and the original system works fine. I was prepared to add more capacity if needed - but it turned out I didn't.

Simplified boat systems are like a 4 hour work week (definite parallel).

Chris

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

Forgot to ask - will these boats be used by others?

If so, you might want to consider the simplified systems I mentioned earlier. The less someone else has to do, the better...
Also, with the boat on shore power much of the time an automated marine charger is the simplest. Whenever shore power is plugged in it "does its thing" without the operator needing to do anything.

I also have a simplified battery and charge monitor (adapted from a Princess Auto unit). I don't like volt meters as I need to look,and compare to a chart. The monitor I use has LEDs in 10 percent increments AND it extends upward from 12 volts to indicate charging. One glance and I know not just battery condition but also if my charging system is working properly.

Chris

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

The head I mentioned is Canadian legal as it connects to a deck mounted pump out (US legal too).

The fact that it "can" be removed doesn't make it a "Portable" head. It does have a wire frame that bolts into the boat that it slides into - so it is in effect "mounted".
At about $130 all up cheaper and simpler than a separate head and holding tank - and less to go wrong/repair. Here is a link to it: http://www.northeastsanitation.com/sanipottie_965msd_parchment.php

The MSD in its name stands for "Marine Sanitation Device".

After cruising with our friends with the Mac 25 and Jabsco head with holding tank I would NEVER go that route on Teliki. Double that if I was not the one sailing the boat - just too much constant problem and repair.

If you need more than 5 gal capacity, the head I mentioned can be connected to an auxiliary tank via a "transfer pump" that they also sell.

Chris

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

Forgot to mention - we use the space under the front V for fresh water tanks (two), the battery (mounted against the rear where it's bolted firmly to the fibreglass - we get pretty nasty weather on Lake Erie) plus there is still room for two Rubbermaid containers of stuff and a case of beer. If you go with the single high capacity battery this optimizes use of the v berth.

We use the old battery location (under the galley) for - well - the galley. With the lift up top, it holds all cookware and more. The boat sits flat on her boot stripe with 5 gal of fuel and grey water tank in the aft locker. That's another thing we added - a 5 gal grey water tank so we don't have to dinghy the dish water to shore.

Chris

Chris & Lenore · Mar 23, 2014

Search for "Macgregor 26 owners" on Facebook and ask to join. Great bunch of people and some in pretty exotic locations (Africa, Australia, Mediterranean).

Chris

walt · Mar 24, 2014

Car stereo (same as marine stereo) ... if you get one made within about the last 10 to 15 years or so, they really don’t take that much power. I have a lot of time on mine measuring current and it’s typically between 1 to 2 amps (typically less than an autopilot).

Solar panels - show your data on the angles? Any good quality panel you can buy now will have good angles (I would not buy from Harbor freight).

efficiency of the panel - compare panels by dividing the power by the area. This is one reason I don’t like HF, a 30 watt panel from HF has a lot more area than a good quality panel. Odd that the Coleman panel didn’t give the area in the spec...

If you want the panel to work well, the number one best thing is to not have partial shading. You can easily lose 30 - 50% with a fairly minor shadow.

Second is being able to set the angle - but for this to be effective you would need to be changing the angle during the day. Depends also on when you use the boat. Winter with lower sun angles - you get more from setting the angle. Middle of summer with the sun overhead, less benifit. Nothing wrong with just generally pointing the panel straight up unless you use the boat in the winter (like I do).

Down in the noise is the type of solar controller (PWM or MPPT). You get a little more for MPPT (like 5 to 15% - typically more like 10%) but PWM is more tolerant of setup and temperature (and less expensive).

You should learn how to do an energy budget.. understand what "amp hours" means.

FYI, when I was out for a week on the 26S with my family (2 kids) with all sorts of electronics (LED lights), I would use about 25 amp hours per day. When I go out by myself, I use about 15 amp hours per day. This does not include a fridge (or things like CPAP) as this dramatically changes your energy needs.

Solar panel output varies all over the place depending on the day, location, clouds, humidity, time of year but you can assume you will get between .25 to .5 amp hours per watt of panel on a given day. For example, a 30 watt panel and using the conservative number of .25 would net about 30*.25 = 7.25 amp hours.

Two six volt batteries in series generally will have over 200 amp hours available. The rule of thumb is that you can use 1/2 of this - or about 100 amp hours.

During the week, each day you use some power and you put some power back in. The important thing is that at the end of the week, you still have about 1/2 of the battery capacitiy left. This also assumes that at the end of the week, you either have a fast means of recharging the batteries (AC charger) or a long time since the boat isnt being used.

walt · Mar 24, 2014

Sumner,

You probably have some numbers for these but I was wondering what amp hours get used from your experieince for a typical fridge and the CPAP?

Sumner · Mar 24, 2014

walt said:
Sumner,

You probably have some numbers for these but I was wondering what amp hours get used from your experieince for a typical fridge and the CPAP?

My CPAP is about 1 1/2 amps if I remember right without the humidifier running on it (quite a bit more if it is). So about 9 amp/hrs a night since I use it about 6 hours. I haven't needed the humidifier on the water so far, just at home.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/inside-22.html

The fridge in Florida with 90+ outside and 80+ inside temps was running about 35 amp/hr a day. It is the 63 quart so the larger one they sell. It looks like the one I made for the Endeavour...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-inside-mods/inside-index.html

... is using about 20 amp/hr a day and it is about twice as large and has a freezer compartment (not huge) and that is in 80+ degree cabin temps also and actually high 80's. It has much more insulation. Knowing what I do now if I needed one for the Mac I'd be tempted to build it also. It is about twice as expensive but you would need to buy less solar and wouldn't have to have so much panel space on the boat.

In the 7 weeks out we ran the ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-13.html

generator probably 4-6 hours total and the rest of the power came from 180 watts of panels. We now have 200 and I think with that the generator would probably never run.

That was with the fridg, CPAP, and about 4 hours of computer time a day and the computer only draws a little over 2 amps. The only other thing running was anchor light and it is only a couple watts.

I'd also put in the 2 6 volt batteries as you mentioned. More amp/hrs for the money and more of a 'true' deep cycle battery. Less wiring and switches also and will charge more efficiency than say the 2 12 volt batteries. I for sure wouldn't go with the 3 12 volt batteries if others are handling the charging duties unless they were all in parallel all the time (the way we run our 2 12's now that will be swapped for 2 6 volt when they go bad).

Being out 3-5 days and letting the batteries drop less solar would work but if you are out continuous and have the fridge and CPAP I'd want the 180 watts minimum and even then at times you might have to charge somehow and the outboards we use don't put out much.

I had ideas on the holding tanks and such but they wouldn't apply for rental boats, which I didn't realize at first was the case,

Sum

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ehudm · Mar 24, 2014

setup of the head and the pump out

Chris & Lenore · Mar 24, 2014

Marty - answers to your questions...

Yes, those were the panels. I joined them together using 3/4 inch aluminum L channel on the front and back - finished unit is about 30 inches by 14.

Two plastic rail mount blocks mount it to the aft rail with a single "brace" to provide additional rigidity (I can almost sit on it).

I experimented with tilting the "array" but the results did not warrant the effort. Once the sun was getting low enough that output dropped off it was out of its "power band" i.e. slant range was killing most of the energy anyway.

I use a single 140 AH AGM battery instead of two smaller ones. As I mentioned before, I run a reasonable amount of equipment and have never needed to "shore charge". Unless you have a fridge, CPAP, marine stereo or other then the setup I use should work for you. You can always add more batteries or shore charging later based on actual use/experience.

Walt mentioned autopilot but we only use ours when motoring (Lenore loves to sail and only hands the tiller over when motoring - which is not often). The outboard produces more amps than the autopilot uses so it balances out.

All our music is on phone or tablet so we use a rechargeable "Jawbone" bluetooth speaker. It runs forever on internal batteries and recharges via 12 volts. I also like streaming audio as Bell has coverage throughout the North Channel (and all our devices have 4G). The Jawbone is loud enough and has decent bass enough to annoy the entire anchorage (of course I never do that

). Everything onboard runs from 12 volts - no inverters allowed!!!

Oh - I remembered the "Reliance cube" water system I liked. It was a post by Thomas Wellman on the "Macgregor 26 Sailors" Facegroup group. It was elegant, dual tank, no valving or switches required and probably cost less than the fittings for the tank you mentioned earlier.

CHris

walt · Mar 25, 2014

I experimented with tilting the "array" but the results did not warrant the effort. Once the sun was getting low enough that output dropped off it was out of its "power band" i.e. slant range was killing most of the energy anyway.

My experience was different than this with a 40 watt Kyocera panel. It is early in the morning and late afternoon where pointing the panel at the sun gives the big gains. Also, in the winter when the sun is low in the sky, you get significant gains. In the picture below, I was getting 3 to 4 times the current by pointing the panel mostly at the sun vs. straight up. And the current when pointing was nearly 70% of what I get peak. Tracking solar panels claim 30 to 40% gains and that is also about what I would have gotten.

However, to get this, you have to move and point the panel multiple times during the day - which is definitely not worth doing and near impossible if you’re actually using the boat. I like having this option but it came about mostly because I wanted to be able to remove the panel.

Sumner · Mar 25, 2014

walt said:
...Also, in the winter when the sun is low in the sky, you get significant gains. .....

I changed our array so that the one 40 watt panel can tilt. Not really for on the water as chances that the wind will have us oriented correctly on anchor is slim to none.

The rear reason is for when the boat is on the trailer at home. Where it is parked that panel tilts to the south side and will keep the batteries up even if I was to remove the other panels or they were covered with snow. Works great for that,

Sum

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walt · Mar 25, 2014

plus the steep angle might have less of the partial shading "issue" that Chris has

justsomeguy · Mar 25, 2014

I recomment a variable AOA on the panel, not that you'll ever excercise it.

Holding tank and battery placement Mac 26D/S

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