Ok Ya got me... What is a variable AOA?I recomment a variable AOA on the panel, not that you'll ever excercise it.
Holding tank and battery placement Mac 26D/S
- Thread starter finding41
- Start date
Bow roller and good anchors and rodes. Going out for a week is too long of a time for a good accurate long range weather report and good anchoring gear is crucial to surviving what nature dishes out.
If you take some 6 night 7 day trips I think you will find what others need. It takes some prep on a small boat to go out for even a week. Most charter boats are mid 30 feet and up with lots of room for people to stow stuff. Our boats not so much. We have done a lot to make staying on the water for extended periods possible and that has made the boat more complicated. Fine for us but not sure someone could just jump on, throw their things down below and go.
Have you considered more weekend or long 4 day weekend type charters instead of the week deal? It would simplify a lot of this. Electrical needs would be easier if in 3-4 days the boat was back and could have the batteries topped off on shore power. I would not have things like moveable panels for other people to operate. Like Chris said if you are having others take the boats out they need to be simple and pretty idiot proof in my opinion.
Have you checked your liability in this and insurance to protect yourself from others?
Just a few things to think about and good luck with the venture,
Sum
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================
Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links[/FONT]
Last edited:
The area where you plan to rent is where we sail every summer with the Trailersailor Association. The floatplan is for two weeks but we always plan to be near a port every 3 to 4 days (pump out, water, food, beer, battery top off, laundry, etc). This is typical of most cruisers - nobody stays on the hook for a week so planning for 3 to 4 days is most realistic. Lots of ports with a day or two of each other - Spanish, Gore Bay, Kagawong, Killarney, etc.
After having experience with renting things out - simple and unattended is the mantra of all systems (water, charging, waste, fuel, etc). Different than if it was for you or I.
How about mosquito protection. I can pass on a few simple solutions that are inexpensive, easy to deploy, easy to store - and proven by 8 summers "up there". If the customer can't get the Mosquitos under control they will have a horrid experience. Other charter companies have found this out the hard way.
Chris
After having experience with renting things out - simple and unattended is the mantra of all systems (water, charging, waste, fuel, etc). Different than if it was for you or I.
How about mosquito protection. I can pass on a few simple solutions that are inexpensive, easy to deploy, easy to store - and proven by 8 summers "up there". If the customer can't get the Mosquitos under control they will have a horrid experience. Other charter companies have found this out the hard way.
Chris
Back stay is in the stock position.
My boat has a fixed 10 watt panel and a removable 40 watt panel. I have been using that boat for a 1 week trip in Feb and if Im lucky, another one week trip. Im usually in a marina for most of the nights but dont have AC power so about the only power Im saving on is an anchor light.
I have a battery charge monitor (Linklite) and it tells me my net amp hours (what I used minus what I generated) and from watching this, I have just not needed the 40 watt panel. I have a newer 9.8 Nissan outboard that DOES contribute to the battery charge (it has a regulator/rectifier vs. only a rectifier).
So the last few one week trips I have done, I did not bring along the removable 40 watt panel and just did not really need it. A 40 watt panel isnt going to hurt sailing performance much but its still nice to not have it there.
I did a quick spread sheet to show about how I end up using the battery on these trips..
Note that with the 200 amp hour battery capabiliity (2 golf cart batteries), I can comfortably get down to 100 amp hour left over. My actual experience is that I end up using the outboard a little more than shown and I actually have not seen the amp hours go below 25 down.
I have this 10 watt panel permanently mounted on the boat for a trickle charger - keeps the batteries charged when the boat sits in the side yard. When I am done with a week trip, the 10 watt panel gets the batteries back to full charge - takes a while but that is no issue.
In your case, I think having very low power loads - and excess generation is probably a good idea (allows for more margin)
Your panel idea looks good. Just one thing to consider... if you put too much wind resistance back there, it may affect how the boat tacks in higher winds. This winter a guy with a Seaward 26 had his bimini up and had trouble tacking in windy conditions - boat would get stuck in irons. Probably another good reason to just have flat panel back there.
In the picture below, the 10 watt panel is there.. but you cant see it
Next picture - sailing with the 40 watt panel a few years ago (also about the last time I had this panel on the boat)
In another thread, someone asked how much solar panel you need and the responses ranged from none to 80 - 100 watts or something like that. Just depends on how you set up the boat. Im using about 15 amp hours per day. Earlier in this thread, Sumner said he uses about 44 amp hours just for the fridge and CPAP - not counting anything else - about a factor of 3 times my entire daily use. Just depends on what you want between optimized for sailing - or optimized for comfort.
Attachments
And.. off topic ... had a great day sailing yesterday on my 15 foot dingy. This is in Denver and the lake was nearly empty (still early season, water temp about 45F). I ended up towing about a 20 foot I/O power boat back to the dock with my mighty 2.5 hp Suzuki.. Power boat guy took some pictures of the little sailboat that pulled him back (in some fairly good wind), I didnt get any picts. A power boat rescued me a few years ago from a capsize and turtle so Im about 1/2 paid up for that previous good deed.
Attachments
Also about 4-6 hours of computer time. Other than the anchor light (2 watts so doesn't account for anything) and the depth finder underway no other loads. All the LED interior lights run on AAA batteries and the speaker for the I-pod runs on batteries (I-pod on 12 volt adapter). Hand pump on sink to conserve water. So about 44 amp/hr a day total for everything above. Really not that bad for full time cruising. Wish that was all we used when we are home
,Sum
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================
Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links[/FONT]
We would for sure, but you are right that not many would stay out a week continuous and probably couldn't having to deal with the ice and potty deal.
I still think their deal about having to have a holding tank and not other options (wag bags) is not realistic in thinking that it will stop dumping. You might disconnect your head and haul it up in the woods to the out-house but I'll bet some just unhook it and dump it over the side. The head with the pump-out is fine but I'd still take bags just in case weather or something comes up and you can't get to a dump site on time.
For us the solar, added water storage, fridge and Double Doodie bags allow almost unlimited cruising with no need for a set time table to do any of the above,
Sum
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================
Our Endeavour 37
Our MacGregor 26-S Pages
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Mac-Venture Links[/FONT]
Sumner "Bow roller and good anchors and rodes. Going out for a week is too long of a time for a good accurate long range weather report and good anchoring gear is crucial to surviving what nature dishes out."
Thanks! I had bow roller on another list but threw it our and it's not on my newest list. It is now.
For weather I'll provide links for clients to use there wireless devices and have the Environment Canada links and phone #. I've used the call in feature for years and have been surprised at how accurate it has been.
I'm toying with the idea of using Ipads for the chart plotter and giving the client the option of providing at sim card for there own entertainment and Internet connection via 3G. I'm told the area has 3G coverage. (Is this true?) An Ipad is energy light too.
Chris noted that the TSA has float plan that have the boat coming back to a marina ever 3-4 days. That will be one of my recommendations as I plan shore power at the home port. Alternatively I can strap a small generator to the arch... http://www.harborfreight.com/engine...hp-63cc-gas-generator-60338.html#.UzTlLnaF9vk
The warranty on that is 90 days. That's the whole season!
With small generator I'd need some other type of charge controller...? Or could the solar one do the job too?
For the bugs I'll provide guests with blood donor cards. And mosquito netting. (I saw fabric land carries noseeum netting. A very tight weave!)
Walt; here is a picture of the beach form Saturday. See the waves... They haven't moved in months!
Off topic. I looked at a Silverline Dolphin 17. I passed because the sails were old and full of ant holes. Who knew ants would eat Dacron?
Thanks! I had bow roller on another list but threw it our and it's not on my newest list. It is now.
For weather I'll provide links for clients to use there wireless devices and have the Environment Canada links and phone #. I've used the call in feature for years and have been surprised at how accurate it has been.
I'm toying with the idea of using Ipads for the chart plotter and giving the client the option of providing at sim card for there own entertainment and Internet connection via 3G. I'm told the area has 3G coverage. (Is this true?) An Ipad is energy light too.
Chris noted that the TSA has float plan that have the boat coming back to a marina ever 3-4 days. That will be one of my recommendations as I plan shore power at the home port. Alternatively I can strap a small generator to the arch... http://www.harborfreight.com/engine...hp-63cc-gas-generator-60338.html#.UzTlLnaF9vk
The warranty on that is 90 days. That's the whole season!
With small generator I'd need some other type of charge controller...? Or could the solar one do the job too?
For the bugs I'll provide guests with blood donor cards. And mosquito netting. (I saw fabric land carries noseeum netting. A very tight weave!)
Walt; here is a picture of the beach form Saturday. See the waves... They haven't moved in months!
Off topic. I looked at a Silverline Dolphin 17. I passed because the sails were old and full of ant holes. Who knew ants would eat Dacron?
Attachments
Just my thoughts, but for a boat this size I think the 3-4 day charters would be a lot more popular, as well as day sails. I belong to a club here in San Diego that ONLY rents their boats during daylight hours and they do very well. I'll actually be taking one of their boats out tomorrow for a lunch date, simply because it's so much easier than bringing my boat to the ramp and rigging it. Instead I show up to essentially the same place I launch from, walk down the dock and onto an already prepped boat. You may want to look into this as well, as a lot of people want to go for a sail, but aren't interested in a full on voyage. The 26 makes a great day sailor as well.
Also speaking from my experience as a customer, I highly doubt I'd wanna charter a boat for a week and not take it into port at least every 2-3 days, even on something a lot bigger. I'm gonna want to get some fresh food, ice, beers, etc. Seems to me that outfitting the boats for an extended trip that few customers will actually do MAY be a little overkill. I'll also say that all of the boats my club rents are dumbed down to the max. Absolutely stripped of all extra features and hardware. It makes them simpler for novice sailors, and less costly for the company to maintain. Simple simple simple. The more complexity the more problems and the more stuff gets broken.
Also speaking from my experience as a customer, I highly doubt I'd wanna charter a boat for a week and not take it into port at least every 2-3 days, even on something a lot bigger. I'm gonna want to get some fresh food, ice, beers, etc. Seems to me that outfitting the boats for an extended trip that few customers will actually do MAY be a little overkill. I'll also say that all of the boats my club rents are dumbed down to the max. Absolutely stripped of all extra features and hardware. It makes them simpler for novice sailors, and less costly for the company to maintain. Simple simple simple. The more complexity the more problems and the more stuff gets broken.
Great points StinkBug!
The daily rental may be a possibility if one isn't booked. One thing is the extra work involved. I'm not going to be dock side. I will have someone to turn the boats over each week but hadn't thought of a daily turnover.
(I have to admit that a daily rental idea has crossed my mind. I was thinking of smaller boats though.)
I Like simple. Allot! Maybe I am over thinking the holding tank idea. It is allot of extra work and extra $.
The daily rental may be a possibility if one isn't booked. One thing is the extra work involved. I'm not going to be dock side. I will have someone to turn the boats over each week but hadn't thought of a daily turnover.
(I have to admit that a daily rental idea has crossed my mind. I was thinking of smaller boats though.)
I Like simple. Allot! Maybe I am over thinking the holding tank idea. It is allot of extra work and extra $.
NC sailors of smaller boats typically head into port every 3-4 days. That's the norm, people staying out a week at a time are extremely rare. You just need to solve for 3 days which is optimum for our boats. Going longer means power, water, waste systems that are "the next size up" and compromise space and add complexity.
Speaking of space Marty - have you thought about garbage? That is a huge issue and often the reason to head into port every 3 days. We have gotten extremely space efficient over the years (repackage into double bags, freeze dried, etc.) but still produce too much garbage. A can "squasher" is a great addition.
This illustrates my point of trying to make a 26 foot boat behave like. 35 footer. Once you add multiple water tanks, 10 gal holding, 3 batteries, an acre of solar - you now have a large amount of garbage to deal with (and less space in the boat). Also consider food and beverage storage for a week.
Also, a marine cooler (CTC) will keep food cold for 3 to 4 days. A week requires dedicated ice storage coolers or refrigeration.
Solving for a week is solving for the 1 percentile - don't forget Pareto....
Chris
Speaking of space Marty - have you thought about garbage? That is a huge issue and often the reason to head into port every 3 days. We have gotten extremely space efficient over the years (repackage into double bags, freeze dried, etc.) but still produce too much garbage. A can "squasher" is a great addition.
This illustrates my point of trying to make a 26 foot boat behave like. 35 footer. Once you add multiple water tanks, 10 gal holding, 3 batteries, an acre of solar - you now have a large amount of garbage to deal with (and less space in the boat). Also consider food and beverage storage for a week.
Also, a marine cooler (CTC) will keep food cold for 3 to 4 days. A week requires dedicated ice storage coolers or refrigeration.
Solving for a week is solving for the 1 percentile - don't forget Pareto....
Chris
Forgot to add an Internet/plotter comment. If you go wireless in the NC area, do not use Rogers. Bell has pretty good coverage across almost the entire area. I know Rogers makes all sorts of "coverage claims" but I cruise with devices on both networks. The Rogers device is basically useless.
If you get a tablet with built in GPS (not wifi dependant) then you don't need a connection for chartplotter use.
Something to consider if you plan to offer wireless as an option - purchase a MIFI device so the customer can connect any of his devices through it (they create a wifi hotspot connected to the Internet via 3/4G). Then you can purchase lower priced Android tablets that are wifi only (Kindke Fire HD) is amazing for the price.
The only problem I can think of is bandwidth. If the customer kicks back with a Netflix movie (or other streaming stuff) they can easily exceed your plan bandwidth and cost you extra. This is an issue at my marina....
Chris
If you get a tablet with built in GPS (not wifi dependant) then you don't need a connection for chartplotter use.
Something to consider if you plan to offer wireless as an option - purchase a MIFI device so the customer can connect any of his devices through it (they create a wifi hotspot connected to the Internet via 3/4G). Then you can purchase lower priced Android tablets that are wifi only (Kindke Fire HD) is amazing for the price.
The only problem I can think of is bandwidth. If the customer kicks back with a Netflix movie (or other streaming stuff) they can easily exceed your plan bandwidth and cost you extra. This is an issue at my marina....
Chris
I'm planning on using the Ipad 2nd gen with 3G. It has built in GPS. And offers a few options for navigation. I have a 2 year old Android tablet with a GPS dongle and I'm not to crazy about it. I don't want to frustrate the customers.
I will let the client use there own SIM card for entertainment...
Thanks for the heads up on using Bell.
On another note: I saw a Bee today! And Flowers! There was snow in that spot last Friday.
I will let the client use there own SIM card for entertainment...
Thanks for the heads up on using Bell.
On another note: I saw a Bee today! And Flowers! There was snow in that spot last Friday.
Attachments
Thanks for the help all! One thing I keep forgetting and relearning is to keep it simple...
The combined knowledge on this site is great! (It's nice to be part of this community too!)
I think I'm set for the head and placement of the fresh water tank.
Same for the battery's. (Now I need to source old lamp cord for wiring... lol)
On another note; I was out at the lake today. It's still frozen. The water has risen at least 6' from the norm and the ice that is there looks like it will be leaving soon. There is about 15-20' of water around the edges.
We have our spring clean up at the yacht club on the 12th and plan to get the docks and moorings in that day as well. I'm hoping to get our shared dock in on the 13th.
Here is a picture of the lake form the SW corner on the dam.
The combined knowledge on this site is great! (It's nice to be part of this community too!)
I think I'm set for the head and placement of the fresh water tank.
Same for the battery's. (Now I need to source old lamp cord for wiring... lol)
On another note; I was out at the lake today. It's still frozen. The water has risen at least 6' from the norm and the ice that is there looks like it will be leaving soon. There is about 15-20' of water around the edges.
We have our spring clean up at the yacht club on the 12th and plan to get the docks and moorings in that day as well. I'm hoping to get our shared dock in on the 13th.
Here is a picture of the lake form the SW corner on the dam.
Attachments
Hey Marty - when you need electrical, plumbing, rigging - where do you go?
Brewer in Hamilton (at the harbour) has a huge selection and reasonable prices. More in stock than Holland Marine in Toronto and less expensive. Definitely better than Masons in Port Credit. Dowsar is just around the corner from them. Also, Radioworld seems to have the best electronics prices - even better than any of the US mail order places.
Chris
Brewer in Hamilton (at the harbour) has a huge selection and reasonable prices. More in stock than Holland Marine in Toronto and less expensive. Definitely better than Masons in Port Credit. Dowsar is just around the corner from them. Also, Radioworld seems to have the best electronics prices - even better than any of the US mail order places.
Chris
Have to agree on Brewers or Dowser for prices and selection. I'm lucky. They are both 5 minutes from my home.
I was planning on using The Rigging Shop in Toronto. www.riggingshoppe.com The owners are Great!
Does Brewer have a website that I can order form?
I just checked out radioworld... I like the prices!
Never saw a catalogue from Brewer - it's more of a "go there" place. Holland Marine has an online catalogue plus you can order an actual printed copy - it's about the size of a phone book (remember those). They used to have a downloadable PDF but I can't find it on their site.
For mail order, these guys (in Kingston ON) have excellent prices and a huge selection: http://www.marineoutfitters.ca check them out - they have better prices then the Rigging Shop (and more selection).
Chris
Just compared water tanks. Rigging shop only has a 15 gal moller for $199.
Marineoutfitters has that tank for $25 less as well as a half dozen other sizes and shapes.
Also noticed their solar prices (to compare to the CTC 30 W panels you were considering). Their 85watt panel is only $165 - beefy aluminum frame, tempered glass (not plastic) and Kyocera cells.
http://www.marineoutfitters.ca/mobile/?page=shop&category=11503|11198|11442&product=22790989
Chris
Marineoutfitters has that tank for $25 less as well as a half dozen other sizes and shapes.
Also noticed their solar prices (to compare to the CTC 30 W panels you were considering). Their 85watt panel is only $165 - beefy aluminum frame, tempered glass (not plastic) and Kyocera cells.
http://www.marineoutfitters.ca/mobile/?page=shop&category=11503|11198|11442&product=22790989
Chris