How loose is too loose

[capta]

As a captain on traditional schooners for some years and all previous small craft sailing was done with hank on jibs, I'm wondering about headstay tension with a roller furling jib.
My headstay is loose enough that I can wiggle my jib when it is furled and when the sail is off the boat the foil will move easily, shaking the whole boat, in a 20 knot gust or more.
On all my previous boats, with hank on jibs, the headstay was very tight, whether the mast was wood or alloy.
I went on a friend's boat yesterday, which is a comparable ketch rigged Amel (both 50' or so), and his headstay was not much tighter than ours. I've heard it said that if the stay is too tight, it will interfere with the furler.
I realize that it's difficult to write about something like headstay tension, but any advice would be helpful.
Thanks

 

[TLW]

I haven't spent lots of time on boats the size of yours, so will certainly defer to others, but in years of sailboat racing I developed a personal preference regarding headstay tension. I like to grab the stay about 6' - 7' above deck and be able to deflect the stay 3 or 4 inches each side of center with "normal" effort. This allows the stay to "sag off" moderately for off-the-wind sailing, AND to be tightened firmly with the backstay adjuster to keep the sail on the centerline upwind. It sounds to me as though your headstay is too loose.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

I liked what TLW said about tension.

I do know wooden sticks should have a looser tension.
I also know that too loose tension can cause a harmonic pumping action or sway that could damage the fittings and/or chainplates etc. & swage failures.

I get the same amount of play as TLW. I removed my backstay adjuster years ago. The BEST tension would be to follow the manufacture's guidelines, with minor adjustments given age & rigging stretch.

 

[capta]

Perhaps I should have added a bit more information.
It is a masthead rig with a furling stay's'l and in mast furling. No backstay adjuster, and the mast needs to stay perfectly straight for the furling, no rake or pre-bend. The mast itself is pretty sturdy, a heavy, double walled extrusion and would probably stand without the rig.
The deflection on the headstay is about 6 to 8" with just the foil, if I shake it as described above.
There don't seem to be any problems under sail; she'll point quite well in flat water.

 

[Jackdaw]

Too much forestay tension will not effect your furling. Too much halyard tension however will.

You should look at your rig while sailing. There should be some forestay sag to leeward when going upwind, on your boat maybe a foot or so. Look of the luff from the fordeck to see.

Right now it sounds too loose.

 

[DougM]

I still wonder about the same thing. My boat has a split backstay and no provision for adjusting the forestay at all ( as in no turnbuckle). The result is that I have more induced rake than I would like. If I have the mast down, it's almost impossible to get the backstays reattached, but after sailing awhile, there is sufficient slack that i can take up about two inches on the turnbuckles and still not hit the tension numbers we would like to see on a Loos gauge. There is still some forestay sag even though I tighten the jib halyard when sailing. The solution we seem to be the addition of a turnbuckle on the forestay except for a couple of potential problems: no room under the furler drum, and then no way to get a wrench on it.

 

[TLW]

Tightening the jib halyard has no effect on tightening the forestay. If anything, it will loosen the forestay.

Tightening the halyard to weather is left-over thinking from dinghy sailing where the halyard IS the forestay. It is important to get the forestay tension correct for luff placement and let the halyard control sail draft.

 

[DougM]

The whole thought process is that the jib halyard is overriding the forestay and in effect becomes the forestay since the halyard and the stay attach at the same point on the mast. I see your point about introducing more sag, but I am able to get the mast a bit more forward. The furler track just rides on the stay it doesn't seem like its attached to much at the head. I guess I'll have to resort to plan B whatever that turns out to be.

 

[Jackdaw]

I still wonder about the same thing. My boat has a split backstay and no provision for adjusting the forestay at all ( as in no turnbuckle). The result is that I have more induced rake than I would like. If I have the mast down, it's almost impossible to get the backstays reattached, but after sailing awhile, there is sufficient slack that i can take up about two inches on the turnbuckles and still not hit the tension numbers we would like to see on a Loos gauge. There is still some forestay sag even though I tighten the jib halyard when sailing. The solution we seem to be the addition of a turnbuckle on the forestay except for a couple of potential problems: no room under the furler drum, and then no way to get a wrench on it.

Your 323 is fractional, right??

With 20% of breaking strength dialed into your upper shrouds, your forestay should tighten up pretty well.

Your backstay fully on will give you more.

With your main up and sheeted and vanged hard, it should take almost all the sag out of it.

 

[capta]

I still wonder about the same thing. My boat has a split backstay and no provision for adjusting the forestay at all ( as in no turnbuckle). The result is that I have more induced rake than I would like. If I have the mast down, it's almost impossible to get the backstays reattached, but after sailing awhile, there is sufficient slack that i can take up about two inches on the turnbuckles and still not hit the tension numbers we would like to see on a Loos gauge. There is still some forestay sag even though I tighten the jib halyard when sailing. The solution we seem to be the addition of a turnbuckle on the forestay except for a couple of potential problems: no room under the furler drum, and then no way to get a wrench on it.

I'm sure it would be a pain, but could you put a turnbuckle at the top of the headstay? I couldn't imagine not having an adjustment, somewhere.

 

[TLW]

Capta, Yes you could put the turnbuckle at the top. You could also put it in the middle! But why would you???? If there is room at the top, put a TB at the bottom where it belongs and slide the furler up 8" or so. Don't know what kind of furler you have, but most incorporate a TB. I think you need to talk to a local rigger and get your problem solved correctly.

 

[TLW]

Capta, I'm trying to think who I know in your area that could help. I can only think of Gary Gleason - former sailmaker, sails out of Hilton Head Yacht Club. Used to sail a Schock 35, but quite a while ago. I believe he is now in the financial services business, but could help or head you in the right direction.

 

[capta]

Capta, I'm trying to think who I know in your area that could help. I can only think of Gary Gleason - former sailmaker, sails out of Hilton Head Yacht Club. Used to sail a Schock 35, but quite a while ago. I believe he is now in the financial services business, but could help or head you in the right direction.

I appreciate the thought, but we're in Bequia, a bit of a drive from Hilton Head, I believe. I stopped by a bit more modern, but comparable boat today and shook his headstay. Mine is a lot looser. Our biggest problem is corrosion on the s/s allen screws that assemble the furler, they're unlikely to come loose. Last time I had to undo the bolt; I'll do it again.
It's DougM who has no turnbuckle, or place to put one on deck, not us.

 

[TLW]

Capta, Sorry, losing track, I guess, over several days and pages of postings. Saw your suggestion of turnbuckle at top and took it as a rhetorical question.

 

[capta]

I was completely unable to free the Profurl furler to access the headstay turnbuckle; bummer. It is labeled "titanium", but I've little familiarity with that metal. I wondered if I could use heat to expand the titanium and free the allen screws, but the one screw I did get out had an o-ring, so heat may be a no no anyway. Any suggestions for removing the 4 allen screws that hold the 2 stainless tangs in the pic alongside the turnbuckle would be appreciated. Isn't titanium supposed to be non-reactive with stainless?
We did get the headstay a lot tighter with the backstays, but I'm not too happy with the hook it put at the top of the mast. Oh well, it might improve performance? Prebend anyone?

 

[rardiH36]

I was completely unable to free the Profurl furler to access the headstay turnbuckle; bummer. It is labeled "titanium", but I've little familiarity with that metal. I wondered if I could use heat to expand the titanium and free the allen screws, but the one screw I did get out had an o-ring, so heat may be a no no anyway. Any suggestions for removing the 4 allen screws that hold the 2 stainless tangs in the pic alongside the turnbuckle would be appreciated. Isn't titanium supposed to be non-reactive with stainless?
We did get the headstay a lot tighter with the backstays, but I'm not too happy with the hook it put at the top of the mast. Oh well, it might improve performance? Prebend anyone?

I've felt your exact pain with those extension tang allen head screws. But in my case, I had already decided to replace the old profurl LC-32 (for a 46' headstay) with a new unit. While the unit was still on the boat I tried to remove. Got the two top ones on each side off, but the two lower ones were stuck despite gentle pounding, various PB Blaster type stuff (for several days) and added leverage on the allen wrenches. The attached pic are of the 6-month removed unit. I thought to save the extension tangs for the wonderfull ss bar that might come in handy someday. At home I whacked with hammers when in a vice and tried to break loose with a chisel at a glancing angle. You can see the bolt is still in it's place. The other empty hole shows the degree of galvanic corrossion. I am sure that the unit is cast aluminum, not titanium. If someone can advise you how to break these loose ... let me know too! Heat would not be a good idea as also inside the drum unit are plastic shims and bearings and seals.

One thing that may work if you have enough room at the top for the entire extrusion foil to move up say 6-10" is remove the two bolts at the very bottom at the double-jawed toggle. Then see if the extension pieces can be pried/moved off the bolt. (Maybe use the jib halyard to hoist a bit to relieve the pressure.) Then use the halyard to hoist up the entire extrusion which will of course move up the drum unit. This would expose the top of the turnbuckle. Better yet, if you remove the sail first, then the weight of the drum and your extrusion isn't all that much and even some strong hands can move it up the forestay once the extension bars are freed from the doubl-jaw bolt. Another item to keep in mind is that if your forestay turnbuckle hasn't been adjusted for many years, getting that to turn free is another challenge!

 

[rardiH36]

capta:

Here are the pics I mentioned in my pm correspondence. Seems that attaching pictures direct from my hard drive is not possible within pm.

rardi