Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge controller

[emergpa1]

I have a problem that is causing an unsafe situation aboard my boat that is persisting despite my efforts to resolve it. My Charge controller is transmitting a signal that interferes with channel sixteen as well as other lower numbered VHF channels. It does not transmit an interfering signal with the higher numbered channels. The signal is approximately 12 feet from the controller then begins to fade out. It is a loud signal sounding much like the radio civic defense warning signal transmitted over TV and Radio. The signal goes away at night, or if the panels are covered. It is heard on handheld as well as fixed VHF. These signals are loud and do not allow safe monitoring of these channels. I have to resolve this issue.

I have placed Ferrite Snap on noise filters on the cables, singular and in pairs, and finally on all four cables with no results. I have rewired the charger with new professionally assembled cables from the charger to the batteries, as the old ones were not sufficient to go to the batteries when I moved the box aft, away from other electronics. Nothing has helped. Has anyone else had this issue? I posted here a few months ago, and that led me to contacting BZ.

So I contacted Frank, a technician with BZ products a few months ago and was told that perhaps a CB Noise Filter wired into the system might help. I have acquired one, but am unsure how to hook it up. I will need to know specifics as to AWG, Connectors, Fusing, and Recommended Location of the filter. They have not yet responded to my request for this information. I was hoping someone here could help with this problem

The filter: POWERLINE INTERFERENCE FILTER, EMI-P30A 16 VOLT, 30 AMP MAX. There is a Radio positive, a radio negative and a batter negative terminal post on the filter box. How do I ware it? is this the appropriate filter?

Solar Power system Specs:
MPPT 500, Mfg. 2/13 connected to two solar panels, wired in series. The panels are Suntech 190W Mono-Si.
Cabling and connectors is professionally made. I can give specifics and photos as needed. I can also supply video of the signal if that would help. System was professionally installed in Early 2013, prior to my purchasing the boat in May of this year. Handheld is an IC-M920, Mounted VHF is a Standard Horizon Eclipse.
Please advise and Fair Winds!
Keith

 

[Maine Sail]

I have a problem that is causing an unsafe situation aboard my boat that is persisting despite my efforts to resolve it. My Charge controller is transmitting a signal that interferes with channel sixteen as well as other lower numbered VHF channels. It does not transmit an interfering signal with the higher numbered channels. The signal is approximately 12 feet from the controller then begins to fade out. It is a loud signal sounding much like the radio civic defense warning signal transmitted over TV and Radio. The signal goes away at night, or if the panels are covered. It is heard on handheld as well as fixed VHF. These signals are loud and do not allow safe monitoring of these channels. I have to resolve this issue.

I have placed Ferrite Snap on noise filters on the cables, singular and in pairs, and finally on all four cables with no results. I have rewired the charger with new professionally assembled cables from the charger to the batteries, as the old ones were not sufficient to go to the batteries when I moved the box aft, away from other electronics. Nothing has helped. Has anyone else had this issue? I posted here a few months ago, and that led me to contacting BZ.

So I contacted Frank, a technician with BZ products a few months ago and was told that perhaps a CB Noise Filter wired into the system might help. I have acquired one, but am unsure how to hook it up. I will need to know specifics as to AWG, Connectors, Fusing, and Recommended Location of the filter. They have not yet responded to my request for this information. I was hoping someone here could help with this problem

The filter: POWERLINE INTERFERENCE FILTER, EMI-P30A 16 VOLT, 30 AMP MAX. There is a Radio positive, a radio negative and a batter negative terminal post on the filter box. How do I ware it? is this the appropriate filter?

Solar Power system Specs:
MPPT 500, Mfg. 2/13 connected to two solar panels, wired in series. The panels are Suntech 190W Mono-Si.
Cabling and connectors is professionally made. I can give specifics and photos as needed. I can also supply video of the signal if that would help. System was professionally installed in Early 2013, prior to my purchasing the boat in May of this year. Handheld is an IC-M920, Mounted VHF is a Standard Horizon Eclipse.
Please advise and Fair Winds!
Keith

This is a pretty common issue with the BZ controllers.. I don't see these issues with Morningstar, Blue Sky, Genasun, Rogue etc....

 

[Don12364]

Screening?

You have verified the interfering signal disappears as distance from the charger controller increases - so it would appear the interference is being transmitted through the air.
To discover if it can be eliminated, or at least significantly reduced, it may be appropriate to try impractical measures first and, if they succeed, to think up ways of implementing them for real. I suggest the controller needs to be fully enclosed in a metal box - either grounded or isolated from the boat's earth.
If you have some sort of metal box to put it in then insulate the connectors for power in and out with tape or similar material and then close the box and see if there is any improvement. You could even try surrounding the unit in cooking foil provided it has no exposed connections to cause short circuits.
If the problem is controlled then you know what needs to be done. If there is no improvement then you will need to look elsewhere - possibly as well as with the screening.
Good luck.

 

[emergpa1]

You have verified the interfering signal disappears as distance from the charger controller increases - so it would appear the interference is being transmitted through the air.
To discover if it can be eliminated, or at least significantly reduced, it may be appropriate to try impractical measures first and, if they succeed, to think up ways of implementing them for real. I suggest the controller needs to be fully enclosed in a metal box - either grounded or isolated from the boat's earth.
If you have some sort of metal box to put it in then insulate the connectors for power in and out with tape or similar material and then close the box and see if there is any improvement. You could even try surrounding the unit in cooking foil provided it has no exposed connections to cause short circuits.
If the problem is controlled then you know what needs to be done. If there is no improvement then you will need to look elsewhere - possibly as well as with the screening.
Good luck.

The charge controller already is housed in a metal box,much like a meter box on a land based dwelling, but a second one is easy enough to try. I have the cover off of it in the photo below so that the label is visible.

Any advice on wiring in the noise filter anyone?

 

[emergpa1]

This is a pretty common issue with the BZ controllers.. I don't see these issues with Morningstar, Blue Sky, Genasun, Rogue etc....

Awe, come on MaineSail, you could have been more helpful than that! and after all that butyl rubber I've bought through you!.

Keith

 

[JohnShannon]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

Did you put filters on the solar panel side as well? You might try an automotive style stereo noise filter on the input. Also twist the input wires to reduce the area of the current loop.

The type of power converter in these products is known as a "buck" converter. This has relatively smooth output current, but a pulsating (noisy) input current. So the best place to try to fix the noise is "likely" on the input side.

 

[Meriachee]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

If the circuit board ground is tied to the existing box, then the box is part of the circuit, and may well be acting as an antenna. Covering it in tin foil as a test may work, but only if the tin foil does not come into contact with exposed metal.

 

[woodster]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

i see you are in Brunswick.....Mike over at genuinedezls may be able to help you ....he is just across 95 interstate on the i think waycross highway about a mile past Charlie's sea food restaurant give him a call and see if he can....just a thought.....

regards

woody

 

[Chief RA]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

Have you tried grounding your box the controller is housed in? This could act as a shield if properly grounded. It might be best to just swap the controller out since the cost shouldn't be that bad. Chief

 

[Apex]

Awe, come on MaineSail, you could have been more helpful than that! and after all that butyl rubber I've bought through you!. :O)
Keith

haha good one Keith: maybe you got advice worty of the margin he makes on butyl tape. :O) or perhaps that was exactly his advice: get a different manufacturer? sheer speculation on my part, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but will watch as I hope to add a charger to my boat in the coming season.

(insert tin foil hat picture here)

 

[Maine Sail]

haha good one Keith: maybe you got advice worty of the margin he makes on butyl tape. :O) or perhaps that was exactly his advice: get a different manufacturer? sheer speculation on my part, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but will watch as I hope to add a charger to my boat in the coming season.

(insert tin foil hat picture here)

I'm not one to try and Band-Aid a product issue with other products intended to mask a build or design issue. I have removed three BZ controllers due to noise/interference issues.

Without seeing the filter or the schematic for it, it is hard to comment on how or where to best locate it..

I would also like to see an image of the installed panels as a series install on a sailboat rarely results in the best system performance..

Before you install the filter confirm it is line level noise not RF noise. A very simple way to do this is to disconnect just one battery form the boat and wire the controller to that battery only. This battery MUST be 100% isolated from the vessel on both the neg and pos terminals and the only connection left is the controller. If you still have noise the an in-line filter is not going to do much to solve the issue...

 

[Bill Roosa]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

Classic misunderstanding of what is going on.
The charge controller is PWMing at around 168MHz
It transmits that AC frequency to the power cables because it has no other option. If you turn a circuit on and off at 168 MHz the cables are going to try and act like antennas. If they are close to the resonant length for that freq then you get a transmission.
If you put all this in a metal box and don't ground the box you accomplish nothing. Little known fact that a Faraday cage does not do squat if it is not grounded. Kinda explains why putting your GPS in the oven during a lightning storm and it still gets fried happens. GROUND your box and put those ferrite cores back on. note that a single core is not that effective. ham radio operators use up to 9 cores in series at this freq. you need to intercept a significant (>10%) of the "antenna" line with cores for them to be effective.
If you are using a filter (not a bad idea as you need a lot of cores at this freq) instead of cores then attach one side to the cable as close to the PWM transistor as possible and the other side to ground and don't use the ground wire on the box/controller it needs to be a dedicated ground wire (strapping is better at HF frequencies BTW)

 

[emergpa1]

Classic misunderstanding of what is going on.
The charge controller is PWMing at around 168MHz
It transmits that AC frequency to the power cables because it has no other option. If you turn a circuit on and off at 168 MHz the cables are going to try and act like antennas. If they are close to the resonant length for that freq then you get a transmission.
If you put all this in a metal box and don't ground the box you accomplish nothing. Little known fact that a Faraday cage does not do squat if it is not grounded. Kinda explains why putting your GPS in the oven during a lightning storm and it still gets fried happens. GROUND your box and put those ferrite cores back on. note that a single core is not that effective. ham radio operators use up to 9 cores in series at this freq. you need to intercept a significant (>10%) of the "antenna" line with cores for them to be effective.
If you are using a filter (not a bad idea as you need a lot of cores at this freq) instead of cores then attach one side to the cable as close to the PWM transistor as possible and the other side to ground and don't use the ground wire on the box/controller it needs to be a dedicated ground wire (strapping is better at HF frequencies BTW)

Bill, I am going to follow your very helpful advice but would like to ask a couple of clarifying questions. What is PWMing and the PWM transistor? Do I understand you to say that i attach the radio filter as close as possible to the box on positive power cable from the charge controller to the battery? Also, what does it mean to attach the ferrite cores in series? Where would you put those? Do they go side by side or spaced out evenly. Lastly, what is strapping?
I am sorry to be so ignorant and ask questions that I could probably get by devouring some books. I am working hard to acquiring knowledge as rapidly as possible. My wife and I moved aboard for good about three weeks ago and I have several projects going on at once as I'm sure you all do. I am trying to learn weather, navigation, Diesel, ( I spent all of today at WW Williams Yanmar of Savanah trying to get parts for the seawater pump as well as the exhaust elbow), electrical, etc. while trying to make life tolerable for the commodore, organizing provisions etc etc. All a lot of fun but overwhelming. That may explain why I'm up this late! Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[emergpa1]

I'm not one to try and Band-Aid a product issue with other products intended to mask a build or design issue. I have removed three BZ controllers due to noise/interference issues.

Without seeing the filter or the schematic for it, it is hard to comment on how or where to best locate it..

I would also like to see an image of the installed panels as a series install on a sailboat rarely results in the best system performance..

Before you install the filter confirm it is line level noise not RF noise. A very simple way to do this is to disconnect just one battery form the boat and wire the controller to that battery only. This battery MUST be 100% isolated from the vessel on both the neg and pos terminals and the only connection left is the controller. If you still have noise the an in-line filter is not going to do much to solve the issue...

Mainesail, Does the fact that it comes over the handhelds as well as the installed radio confirm that it is RF noise? Does this change things? I'll have to get back to you on the image of the installed panels.
keith

 

[emergpa1]

I'm not one to try and Band-Aid a product issue with other products intended to mask a build or design issue. I have removed three BZ controllers due to noise/interference issues.

Without seeing the filter or the schematic for it, it is hard to comment on how or where to best locate it..

I would also like to see an image of the installed panels as a series install on a sailboat rarely results in the best system performance..

Before you install the filter confirm it is line level noise not RF noise. A very simple way to do this is to disconnect just one battery form the boat and wire the controller to that battery only. This battery MUST be 100% isolated from the vessel on both the neg and pos terminals and the only connection left is the controller. If you still have noise the an in-line filter is not going to do much to solve the issue...

P.S. I found your article on Installing solar panels. I quickly scanned it for this post. I am sure I have the sealed type of boxes. I do not suffer much shade back there. They will have to stay series right now. For two 190 watt panels in series, what type of MPPT controller should I look for if i do dump the BZ charge controller?

 

[emergpa1]

haha good one Keith: maybe you got advice worty of the margin he makes on butyl tape. :O) or perhaps that was exactly his advice: get a different manufacturer? sheer speculation on my part, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but will watch as I hope to add a charger to my boat in the coming season.

(insert tin foil hat picture here)

I have a slightly used BZ charge controller for sell!

 

[Chris Patterson]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

If it's hitting the H.T., it's definitely RF.

 

[Maine Sail]

P.S. I found your article on Installing solar panels. I quickly scanned it for this post. I am sure I have the sealed type of boxes. I do not suffer much shade back there. They will have to stay series right now. For two 190 watt panels in series, what type of MPPT controller should I look for if i do dump the BZ charge controller?

The Morningstar MPPT's are about the quietest I have seen and they meet FCC Class B not that this means all that much. Morningstar is not shy about putting their products through nearly every certification testing there is.

You will want an MPPT controller capable of the rated voltage of your panels in series and capable of the current. The Morningstar TriStar MPPT would be a good choice. They are loaded with options such as data logging, can computer interface, have an available remote display and are pretty darn bullet proof. They also have excellent tech support.

I also like the Rogue 3024 controllers a LOT but I have not had enough time to asses how quiet the new ones are. You might give him a call as these are a lot of controller for the money.

 

[zeehag]

Re: Unsafe condition with BZ products MPPT500 Charge control

i have been using a bz pwm controller for 5 yrs on this boat and some 3-4 on another.. i even have backups for it...this one was on my ericson for a few years and then i stole it for my formosa. i love it. it works. safe and effective.
mebbe there was a glitch, or mebbe it wasnt installed correctly or some such to cause unsafe situation.
is this the only b controller you have used??? was a warning sent from bz to users of this piece of equipment??
i have used blue sky and other controllers. i even used a bluesky mppt controller. but i like my bz better. it does what it was designed to do .
has anyone else personally experienced this phenomenon, of danger in the bz mppt controller???
have you tried dealing with bz with this problem.......
my pwm controller is quiet and doesnt interfere with anything anywhere near it. it is at my electrical panel, just inside my coach house.
perhaps bz has something to say about the situation. might wanna check with them on this..

i am so full of novel ideas today....lol

 

[emergpa1]

i have been using a bz pwm controller for 5 yrs on this boat and some 3-4 on another.. i even have backups for it...this one was on my ericson for a few years and then i stole it for my formosa. i love it. it works. safe and effective.
mebbe there was a glitch, or mebbe it wasnt installed correctly or some such to cause unsafe situation.
is this the only b controller you have used??? was a warning sent from bz to users of this piece of equipment??
i have used blue sky and other controllers. i even used a bluesky mppt controller. but i like my bz better. it does what it was designed to do .
has anyone else personally experienced this phenomenon, of danger in the bz mppt controller???
have you tried dealing with bz with this problem.......
my pwm controller is quiet and doesnt interfere with anything anywhere near it. it is at my electrical panel, just inside my coach house.
perhaps bz has something to say about the situation. might wanna check with them on this..

i am so full of novel ideas today....lol

BZ finally replied and sent the message attached in the photos, with the "filter" (I could not copy and paste the message due format)

This is and EXCELLENT example of MaineSail's comment about "bandaid approach". I do not see cutting my custom built #6AWG CABLES and connecting this. Heat? Voltage drop? Fire?
Please comment