Has anyone waxed Cetol to make it more UV resistant and last longer. FYI I've tried their clear coat and hated it so that's not a solution. I've also used varnish so no varnish is better replies please!
Cetol
- Thread starter Captn TJ
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I like Cetol but have a lot (cap rail and seats) to do and thought a UV deterrent would reduce maintenance.
Is anyone well enough versed on wax to explain if there is ANY measurable UV protection? Yup, that goes counter to the advertisements and the conventional wisdom we've been taught, but there is a lot of puffing and plain snake oil out there.
There is a big difference between how UV stabilizers in plastics work (they don't block UV but rather absorb/react with undesirable by products of UV impact before damaging chain reactions can go far) and blocking UV the way sunglasses do. Look how thick and dark sunglass need to be to protect from UV, and many poor glasses do little. Same with sunscreen; it doesn't block the UV (except for zinc oxide and a few similar products) but rather renders it less damaging.
I find it pretty hard to believe a thin layer of wax does ANYTHING significant to block UV, though it may protect the coating from chemical oxidation, allowing the paint to better protect itself. With oxygen more limited, UV will be less damaging. For example, while waxing cars made sense in the 60, when I was a kid, with modern clear coats it is pretty pointless.
Experts?
There is a big difference between how UV stabilizers in plastics work (they don't block UV but rather absorb/react with undesirable by products of UV impact before damaging chain reactions can go far) and blocking UV the way sunglasses do. Look how thick and dark sunglass need to be to protect from UV, and many poor glasses do little. Same with sunscreen; it doesn't block the UV (except for zinc oxide and a few similar products) but rather renders it less damaging.
I find it pretty hard to believe a thin layer of wax does ANYTHING significant to block UV, though it may protect the coating from chemical oxidation, allowing the paint to better protect itself. With oxygen more limited, UV will be less damaging. For example, while waxing cars made sense in the 60, when I was a kid, with modern clear coats it is pretty pointless.
Experts?
A coupe of issues/thoughts that may be pertinent to his dilemma ....
1. Cetol's formulation of UV stabilizers is probably a nano-sized ferrous oxide ... added to protect the WOOD underneath the Cetol from UV damage. Its the destruction of the upper surface layer of wood cells thats the goal of UV stabilizers in 'clear-ish coatings' for wood.
2. That leaves the Cetol and other coatings 'plastic' components, especially the surface layers, vulnerable to UV damage ... because the 'depth' of the UV compound isnt all that 'deep'/thick on the surface.
3. FLAT surface 'finishing' of the coatings, especially transparent or translucent coatings, do not produce 'lensatic' concentrations of the incident light ... like how a magnifying glass does. If his surface is not close to totally FLAT, then this 'lensatic' effect will allow UV damage faster in some areas of the coating than when FLAT. The answer to that is to learn to 'lay down' a dead-smooth final coat, or hand-rub and/or power buff the final surface with 3M Finese-it™ then 3M Perfect-it™ to FLAT if the final coat isnt flat - called 'finishing for good reason'.
4. He might want to 'experiment' also with clear high 'SPF number' cosmetic sunscreens that are applied to skin as a continual temporary method ... of course he's got to also experiment to see if any of these will be 'harmful' to the surface finish.
5. There's always the possibility of using canvas / fabric covers over his brightwork.
6. If the surface/clear degradation is the issue, he might want to consider a 2-part urethane 'clear coat' over his cetol if what he's trying to protect is the cetol .... automotive clear coats are quite robust vs. UV. Before the advent of Cetol and other modern catalyzed coatings, many varnish-aholics would use 2-part clear over 'primo-primo' varnish jobs for protection ... protection of the varnish.
7. If the above doesnt sound 'interesting', suggest he change to the more modern 2-part base + 2 part clear such as Bristol Finish or Honey Teak. Ive abandoned the use of all but Honey Teak but still have to recoat with the catalyzed clear every few years (since its an ACRYLIC-urethane co-polymer system it can be power-buffed back to brilliance).
HT - www.signaturefinish.com - (expensive)
I have a boat with 'acres' of brightwork.
;-)
1. Cetol's formulation of UV stabilizers is probably a nano-sized ferrous oxide ... added to protect the WOOD underneath the Cetol from UV damage. Its the destruction of the upper surface layer of wood cells thats the goal of UV stabilizers in 'clear-ish coatings' for wood.
2. That leaves the Cetol and other coatings 'plastic' components, especially the surface layers, vulnerable to UV damage ... because the 'depth' of the UV compound isnt all that 'deep'/thick on the surface.
3. FLAT surface 'finishing' of the coatings, especially transparent or translucent coatings, do not produce 'lensatic' concentrations of the incident light ... like how a magnifying glass does. If his surface is not close to totally FLAT, then this 'lensatic' effect will allow UV damage faster in some areas of the coating than when FLAT. The answer to that is to learn to 'lay down' a dead-smooth final coat, or hand-rub and/or power buff the final surface with 3M Finese-it™ then 3M Perfect-it™ to FLAT if the final coat isnt flat - called 'finishing for good reason'.
4. He might want to 'experiment' also with clear high 'SPF number' cosmetic sunscreens that are applied to skin as a continual temporary method ... of course he's got to also experiment to see if any of these will be 'harmful' to the surface finish.
5. There's always the possibility of using canvas / fabric covers over his brightwork.
6. If the surface/clear degradation is the issue, he might want to consider a 2-part urethane 'clear coat' over his cetol if what he's trying to protect is the cetol .... automotive clear coats are quite robust vs. UV. Before the advent of Cetol and other modern catalyzed coatings, many varnish-aholics would use 2-part clear over 'primo-primo' varnish jobs for protection ... protection of the varnish.
7. If the above doesnt sound 'interesting', suggest he change to the more modern 2-part base + 2 part clear such as Bristol Finish or Honey Teak. Ive abandoned the use of all but Honey Teak but still have to recoat with the catalyzed clear every few years (since its an ACRYLIC-urethane co-polymer system it can be power-buffed back to brilliance).
HT - www.signaturefinish.com - (expensive)
I have a boat with 'acres' of brightwork.
;-)
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I have used "Bristol Finish" 2 part finish since 2002 with stunning results. We bought a Island Packet 38 that had just returned from 4 years in the Italy and Greece where the owner applied Bristol on the coaming and toe rail in 1998. It was almost flawless. I applied this to the rest of the wood on deck and another coat on the early work. It was beautiful in 2006 and this was in the sun of the Fla Keys and Gulf coast.
I have used it on 3 other boats here in Washington and some of it is 8 years old and still almost perfect. It is expensive at about $80 a quart but that will cover a 40 foot boat. It needs to be put on in temps of 70 to 80 degrees for best results and is very easy to apply with a very long working life. Very long. I will never use Cetol again. It is a good product but Bristol is that much better.
Ray
I have used it on 3 other boats here in Washington and some of it is 8 years old and still almost perfect. It is expensive at about $80 a quart but that will cover a 40 foot boat. It needs to be put on in temps of 70 to 80 degrees for best results and is very easy to apply with a very long working life. Very long. I will never use Cetol again. It is a good product but Bristol is that much better.
Ray
HEINZIR
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- Jan 22, 2008
- 198
Here's a different take on covering up beautifully varnished (or otherwise finished) wood:
http://johnvigor.blogspot.com/2012/12/too-beautiful-for-human-eyes.html
Why go to all the trouble of finishing and maintaining exquisite bright work if you are just going to cover it up? Part of the pride of ownership of a nicely finished yacht is being able to "show it off." Who doesn't feel a surge of pride when we overhear dock walkers admiring our pride and joy? Canvas does not draw nearly as many admiring glances as varnished wood. Sure, the covers come off when we go out sailing, but who can see the magnificent job you've done from hundreds of yards away? It's kind of like buying an expensive work of art and then keeping it in a private room where only you can enjoy it.
Here's an example of the modern 2-part + 2-part coatings. These pics show what such looks like after 8-10+ years of sun exposure. The only maintenance that was done was an occasional 'quick' clear coat overlay (1 day) and an occasional 'power buff'.
The coating here is Honey Teak; but, Bristol Finish will have equal results. With both, the 'trick' for long lasting service is THICK coatings so that you get sufficient 'build' so that the UV filters can protect the upper layer of wood cells so you dont get 'lifting' due to the 'UV burn'.
The pic of the winch / cap rail is what such looks like after 'flat sanding with 1000 and 1500 w&d paper' and then power buffing.
I can live with an every 10-12 year 'complete re-do'.
The coating here is Honey Teak; but, Bristol Finish will have equal results. With both, the 'trick' for long lasting service is THICK coatings so that you get sufficient 'build' so that the UV filters can protect the upper layer of wood cells so you dont get 'lifting' due to the 'UV burn'.
The pic of the winch / cap rail is what such looks like after 'flat sanding with 1000 and 1500 w&d paper' and then power buffing.
I can live with an every 10-12 year 'complete re-do'.
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The new gloss formulation is pretty much clear, looks good on teak, with LOTS of build, like about 12 coats of varnish. And it is easy to scuff and recoat each year or two. Don't see any use for wax.
Heinzir:
The wood looks fine when you remove the canvas. This leaves more time for sailing and enjoying liquid refreshment.
The wood looks fine when you remove the canvas. This leaves more time for sailing and enjoying liquid refreshment.
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