Americas Cup. Is this "Sailing"?

Ray Bowles · Sep 8, 2013

I absolutly love the boats and the technology involved and am truly amazed at the skill of the sailors.
Does this relate to the sedate boats most of us sail? Probably not. I guess we will go to our wooden scooners and hoist our gaff rigged sails and shake our heads at all the money they are wasting.
Ray
Ray

capta · Sep 8, 2013

jibes138 said:
So what keeps these boats from heeling a lot when the wind kicks up? Seems like regardless of wind strength they stay pretty flat and just get up on their foils. The lifting foil is on the leeward side so what is stopping the windward hull from lifting significantly and heeling the boat? Considering the forces involved in sailing this fast it can't be just the crew weight. Do they have a bunch of ballast in the hulls?

There are two factors at work here. The first is the windward hull which is a good distance to weather from the center line of the boat, then add crew weight (and some of these are big boys) way out there and leverage does the rest.
The other is exactly the opposite to your thoughts of weight. These boats are very, very light for their size, which allows them to accelerate extremely quickly, moving the apparent wind forward, unloading the rig to some degree. I have been sent ass over teakettle when a gust hit my tri, when I wasn't expecting it or holding onto something.
Safety in a cruising multihull comes from keeping the vessel very light, allowing her to accelerate quickly, bringing the apparent wind forward enough to luff the sails, giving the crew time to adjust to the changing conditions. This does not apply to most of the "roomarans" available to rent as bareboats these days like the Lagoons, but if you are interested in getting the feel of a multi, rent a Hobie 14 or 16 for a few hours. I know you won't believe it, but you can even back one into a slip under sail, with just a little practice. Fun stuff.

StinkBug · Sep 8, 2013

For those complaining about the coverage and in particular the commercial breaks, the AC channel on YouTube has all the races available for viewing at any time with no commercial breaks. Dunno if they are streaming the finals live like they did with the LV cup, but I've been watching the races every night before bed. I've seen a lot of people complaining about the coverage, but IMHO it's the best I've ever seen of an event that's so spread out over such a large area. Covering an event on a stationary field in a stadium is easy. Trying to get everything to work while traveling several miles across water is another thing altogether. I think they've done an amazing job of making it not only entertaining for non-sailors but also giving a lot of inside close up views for people like us to study and analyze.

Capmbob · Sep 9, 2013

I have a deep respect for any boat or sailor who gets his power from the wind. Whether it be Purists who say "Real boats are made of wood or only have one hull", or the guys who sail these flying wings. Back when I used to race a 16" Hobie Cat we used to joke about how it was more like a sled than a sailboat. But honestly folks, there is nothing more exhilarating than hanging on the trapeze with one hull flying, cruising at 20 knots. The crashes and "pitch poles" could be really painful and injurious, but it sure was a heck of a lot of thrills and the standard joke was "if your not bleeding your not having fun".
This same argument could be had for the guy who shows up at a classic car show with a brand new Mustang fresh off the showroom floor.

jibes138 · Sep 9, 2013

capta said:
There are two factors at work here. The first is the windward hull which is a good distance to weather from the center line of the boat, then add crew weight (and some of these are big boys) way out there and leverage does the rest.
The other is exactly the opposite to your thoughts of weight. These boats are very, very light for their size, which allows them to accelerate extremely quickly, moving the apparent wind forward, unloading the rig to some degree. I have been sent ass over teakettle when a gust hit my tri, when I wasn't expecting it or holding onto something.
.

Heeling moment is created by the position of the center of effort of the sail. The height of this point above the water line and the sum of the forces on the sail in the leeward direction cause the boat to heel. I have seen Hobies capsize many times and the crew having to hike way out on trapezes to try to counter the heeling. Yet these boats remain relatively flat. Say the guys are 250 pounders, there are 11 of them, so about 2750 pounds, out there at 20 feet from centerline is about 55000 pounds of righting moment. I guess that's a lot of moment, But it seems regardless of wind strength they can somehow adjust their heeling to remain relatively flat. It must have something to do with the foils on the leeward side not just providing lift but also righting moment and it must be adjustable. I know these foils adjust for fore and aft pitch control, they must also adjust to help prevent the heeling.

jibes138 · Sep 9, 2013

Note how the foils are curved, it makes me wonder if the lift from the foils is also directed outward which would provide a righting moment, so the vector direction is not just vertical but also has a horizontal component. If the vector direction of the foil lift was perpendicular to a line drawn through the center of effort of the wing it would do the trick, eh? Seems this would also cause some leeway. Anyway some really interesting engineering in these boats.

Sailm8 · Sep 9, 2013

StinkBug said:
For those complaining about the coverage and in particular the commercial breaks, the AC channel on YouTube has all the races available for viewing at any time with no commercial breaks. Dunno if they are streaming the finals live like they did with the LV cup, but I've been watching the races every night before bed. I've seen a lot of people complaining about the coverage, but IMHO it's the best I've ever seen of an event that's so spread out over such a large area. Covering an event on a stationary field in a stadium is easy. Trying to get everything to work while traveling several miles across water is another thing altogether. I think they've done an amazing job of making it not only entertaining for non-sailors but also giving a lot of inside close up views for people like us to study and analyze.

+1000

In my former life I directed live TV. We complain about minor electrical problems on our boats. Can you imagine a host of remote controlled cameras getting dunked at 40kts? What kind of batteries must they carry? Not to mention the computer program that crunches the data for the graphics. And it all works! The behind the scenes technical support must involve an army. Simply amazing
My hope is that the TV coverage is making a profit or we will never see it again, certainly not opposite Sunday football.

Gunni · Sep 9, 2013

Sailm8 said:
+1000

In my former life I directed live TV. We complain about minor electrical problems on our boats. Can you imagine a host of remote controlled cameras getting dunked at 40kts? What kind of batteries must they carry? Not to mention the computer program that crunches the data for the graphics. And it all works! The behind the scenes technical support must involve an army. Simply amazing
My hope is that the TV coverage is making a profit or we will never see it again, certainly not opposite Sunday football.

Mr. Ellison and his Cup syndicate GAVE the Tee Vee coverage to NBC for $0, because the NBC corporate suits were struggling to find value in this awesome sailing spectacle in San Francisco. Mr. Ellison also underwrote the course graphics, the cameras, the eye-in-the-sky, the camera chase boats, the video/audio comms, the production and gave it to the NBC suits. Presumably because they were clueless as to how to make this complicated sport understandable for the average viewer. For his effort, the NBC suits rewarded him with a four-hour delay on broadcast of the Louis Vuitton final race, while live web video was blacked-out. All to preserve NBC's ability to scrape up a profit at the expense of true sail race fans. And this weekend we were treated to constant interruptions for updates for one or another football game stats.

But the good news is you can download a link to the AC You Tube channel where racing news, uninterrupted race video, photos, blogs etc. can be viewed in all their glory. Regrettably, due to the deal with NBC, you will have to watch them after the live Tee Vee broadcast. Tune in Tuesday at noon-30 PDT (3:30 EDT) for more racing!

mauruuru · Sep 9, 2013

The technology is amazing- both boats and coverage. But, a return to national team competition will attract more general attention than just sail racing community. And that is required to sustain the legacy!

StinkBug · Sep 9, 2013

Gunni said:
Mr. Ellison and his Cup syndicate GAVE the Tee Vee coverage to NBC for $0, because the NBC corporate suits were struggling to find value in this awesome sailing spectacle in San Francisco. Mr. Ellison also underwrote the course graphics, the cameras, the eye-in-the-sky, the camera chase boats, the video/audio comms, the production and gave it to the NBC suits. Presumably because they were clueless as to how to make this complicated sport understandable for the average viewer. For his effort, the NBC suits rewarded him with a four-hour delay on broadcast of the Louis Vuitton final race, while live web video was blacked-out. All to preserve NBC's ability to scrape up a profit at the expense of true sail race fans. And this weekend we were treated to constant interruptions for updates for one or another football game stats.

But think of it this way. If Ellison hadn't given them all that, we wouldn't be getting TV coverage AT ALL. And as for football interruptions, can you really blame them? They are showing a completely unknown event, with a pretty small built in audience and a completely new format at the same time as the highest rated weekly TV event in the country. NOTHING comes close to football for TV ratings, yet they are showing sailing. Maybe instead of complaining, we should be sending them letters thanking them and asking them to continue showing events like this in the future.

jviss · Sep 9, 2013

Gunni said:
NBC corporate suits

I detect anti-capitalist sentiment here.

Also, what's "Tee Vee?"

Gunni · Sep 9, 2013

StinkBug said:
But think of it this way. If Ellison hadn't given them all that, we wouldn't be getting TV coverage AT ALL. And as for football interruptions, can you really blame them? They are showing a completely unknown event, with a pretty small built in audience and a completely new format at the same time as the highest rated weekly TV event in the country. NOTHING comes close to football for TV ratings, yet they are showing sailing. Maybe instead of complaining, we should be sending them letters thanking them and asking them to continue showing events like this in the future.

Pro football is all that NBC has going for it and viewership is trending down. NBC pays the NFL a bundle for the broadcast rights and passes that cost along to cable providers who then pass it along to the subscriber. Which is probably why TimeWarner, Charter, and Comcast are losing subscribers as Netflix, Google, Amazon and Hulu are gaining subscribers. A whole generation of viewers are coming along who will never have cable or a tee vee because they don't see the value. NBC's AC coverage only proves the wisdom of that choice. Wait 4 hours and watch on line seems just fine for most.

Benny17441 · Sep 9, 2013

As I head for California and to be in San Francisco the weekend of 9/13-9/15 I look forward to seeing these incredible machines. The reasons for my stay have nothing to do with the Americas Cup but I'll take some time out to get a look and judge for myself to see if there is a future at all for proffessional stadium racing. It'll be worthwhile to take a look at those 72's as they are a one time wonder and likely to get phased out for the cheaper 45's. TV coverage has been good with plenty of cameras onboard but I feel for the commentators who don't seem to know what is going on half the time. Exiting yes, so is NASCAR but good sailing, yet to be seen.

Dan Johnson · Sep 9, 2013

Hey Stu...

Same thing is happening with the coverage of F-1 racing now that NBC has taken it over from the Speed Channel. Great graphics and explainations, but too many commercials.

While in commercial they try to show the race inside a bitty picture window inside another window inside a dead background shot. You can't see anything so why bother. Having Mario Andretti as a "color" commentator was wonderful for the Italian GP but I would have preferred more in-car and track shots than talking heads.

Same goes for the AC coverage. Great close-in shots, but you can't get a perspective on the relative positions of the boats until they back off, though the separation graphis do help. But a whole race in just over a half hour?

Then again, these AC Tri's are awesome to watch!

kpgraci · Sep 9, 2013

Back to the question of if it’s sailing, it is, but I think the ‘problem’ stems from the specialization that racing in general brings about. Cowboys would race each other on horseback to see who had the fastest horse, now with scientific breading and training techniques we get fast horses that would be terrible at rounding up cattle. Same with formula one, started with kids and their hot rods built from old junk, try to drive the kids to Wal-Mart in a modern race car, you can’t. Sailboats that did utilitarian things, like carry passengers, cargo or guns would brag about being the fastest – what good is a fast boat whose only job is to go fast but serves no other purpose? It all comes down to who we are as humans, bragging rights are important, and it does lead to innovation for the rest of us. Me, I just like floating on the water, but I'm glad those guys/gals are out there going fast.

iSailor · Sep 9, 2013

Quick question, are these identical boats?

rpwillia · Sep 9, 2013

Think about football

Stu Jackson said:
... The lame commentators said: "While we were away, the best racing of the series happened."
...
Imagine if they broke to a commercial during the Super Bowl when one team was driving for a touchdown, or the bottom of the ninth in the seventh game of the World Series. ...

At live football games all of a sudden all the refs and players are just standing around until the TV guy steps on the fields and let's them go again. It's call commercial time. While we can't stop this action in sailboat racing, you would think they would introduce a tape delay and just pick up where they stopped.

mark_swart · Sep 9, 2013

A week or so ago I was being nosy on the docks here in Honolulu, and stumbled across America II. She was being used as a charter boat here in the islands. I remember a few years ago I we in Newport, RI, and also saw some old Cup boats from the 70s.
I get that racing is about developing tech and looking toward the future, but at some point I think it should balance with maintaining a legacy of yacht racing as well. In 25-35 years, I doubt any of the current winged wonders will still be in existence.

StinkBug · Sep 9, 2013

iSailor said:
Quick question, are these identical boats?

No they are not. They are built within what they are calling a "box rule" which specifies things like length, width, wing height, etc. but they are each their own design. They look incredibly similar, but when you get to the little details there are a lot of differences. One of the newest things I've seen pop up are the 2 boxy wing things on the rear cross beam of the ETNZ boat. Also if you watch the pre-race coverage they give a little run down on who all the people on board are, and you'll notice that they arrange the crew differently between the 2 boats.

On the topic of tape delays, I've wondered why they dont do that for motorcycle racing as well. The races are only about 45min anyways, which is the actual run time for most hour long shows. Seems like they could do a DVR style pause for commercial then resume. Somehow I think they either believe that the public DEMANDS that things be live to the second, or if there was a delay they couldn't legally call it live coverage anymore. In either case I think they are doing it in the name of the viewer, while giving the viewer a lesser product as a result.

Americas Cup. Is this "Sailing"?

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