basic intruments speed & water depth ??

katana750 · May 9, 2013

Roadking Larry said:

My new to me 26S has no knot meter and no depth finder.
I'd like to have both. I know I can install a epth transducer inside the hull but what are my options for speed sending units? I've seen the paddle wheel type but if I can get by with out cutting a hole int he bottom of my boat I would like that.
Are the fish finder/GPS combo units worth the effort?

Click to expand

I bought a Lowrance Elite 4 fishfinder/chartplotter about 300 dollars. I had an earlier version that came with the boat...that I thought I lost....but I recently found again, but I am still going to try out the newer version. It has depth, speed (through gps) and water temperature. There are quite a few other functions but that is all I really need right now. The speed is just over ground not how fast you are moving through the water, but on the plus side you only need one hole through the boat.

onecoolair · May 9, 2013

katana750 said:
I bought a Lowrance Elite 4 fishfinder/chartplotter about 300 dollars. I had an earlier version that came with the boat...that I thought I lost....but I recently found again, but I am still going to try out the newer version. It has depth, speed (through gps) and water temperature. There are quite a few other functions but that is all I really need right now. The speed is just over ground not how fast you are moving through the water, but on the plus side you only need one hole through the boat.

Why is a hole in the boat necessary?

MrBill_FLL · May 10, 2013

hang the paddle wheel off the back of the boat.
or (not recommended) drill through the lazerette for your paddle wheel. I only have SOG with my gps but I'm not racing my mac and don't care that much about incremental speed and currents.
-I assume this is not a lake, where SOG is almost always the same as boat speed.

edit: you are in OK? gps speed over ground should be plenty of info...
-correct me if I'm wrong here.

Sumner · May 10, 2013

Roadking Larry said:
I understand the difference, but is there enough of an issue on a lake with no tides or currents to worry about? The time lag for GPS is a consideration but again, for this rookie sailor I don't know if it is enough to matter.

Our boat came with a depth gauge that had...

.... the transducer in toilet bowel wax forward of the water ballast tank. You can see that it is at an angle, but still worked for us. It also had a wheel at the transom, but seemed inconsistent on the speed and then that stopped working. Then the depth didn't always work so we added...

...the Cuda 350 above with the GPS also for $200. I mounted the ...

....transducer on the stern so that I could get water temp to see if if was warm enough for me to get in and I can clean it there easy in salt water if getting barnacles. It is also now mounted pointing straight down. I don't think having it forward gives you much more warning if you are going to hit something are not.

We really like the mounting...

...on the lifelines as we can slide it forward for me to see or set or to the stern for Ruth to easily see while moving or going in to anchor. The mod is here...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-navigation/Cuda 350.html

One think I don't like about the Cuda and I think the Lowarnce Elite is the same is that it can send GPS location via NEMA but it can not receive NEMA. This means you don't have the option of sending it waypoints that are created with say other software like OpenCPN and/or SeaClear or others. To us this is important as we are likely to be in new water and like to plan our route in advance and be able to see it during the day. You can manually input waypoints, but that is a real pain. If you are lake sailing on the same lake or body of water that might not be important, but if you think you will be going to new bodies of water it can be. If I was getting up in the $300 range I'd spend another $100 to $150 or so and get a something like the Garmin 400 series with a transducer that can communicate and that also comes with good charts. We do use the NEMA send on the Cuda to send out location to the VHF that has DSC which is nice to have.

One option is to buy an older Garmin handheld, such as a Map76S off of ebay. We have a few of those now and you can get them for about $60 and I don't think any of those we bought were used much if at all. Use it for your speed and later like us you could use it with one of the chartplotter programs I mentioned if you go somewhere. Then buy a fishfinder in the $100 to $150 range and mount the transducer inside or out, your preference. This is the combo we are using on the Endeavour and for under $100 bought a Humminbird 170 fish finder for the depth and will mount it forward inside the hull and give up the water temp. It has a little better resolution than those under it. Since the boat draws 4'-6" I want it forward to use when we are very slowly moving into a new anchorage for depth. It of course will also be used underway. The other reason for buying it is they have a very long accessory cable so we can get from the bow to the cockpit on the Endeavour. We had bought one of the portable Humminbirds to use in the dinghy looking for anchorages and as a backup and liked it so got the 170 which now might be the 175,

Sum

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walt · May 10, 2013

My boat came with a paddle wheel speed measurement with a hole drilled in the bottom of the boat - dysfunctional as it had some marine growth. These boats are also nice to be able to beach which can damage sensitive stuff on the bottom. I permanently filled in the hole with glass and epoxy..

I have the Lowrance Elite shown in the picture, same as katana. You can see where I mounted it, visible from either tack while sailing and also motoring. You can move the speed and depth readings around on the screen as well as adjust the size. I had actually removed the water temp reading in the picture but later added it back in real small font since I only might read it once but am constantly watching the speed and water depth. Check the power requirements of what you pick also, the current draw will vary a lot between models. This Lowrance has one of the lowest current draws and will support the radio DSC.

I have found that that screen is just to far away to really navigate with and when I get something close I need to wear reading glasses and with the tiller boat, there are limited places to put a nav aid that you can see well. If I ever need to do some hairy navigating (like running a dredged channel at night... ya right...) I would use a handheld GPS. The best for this might be an Ipad but I’m guessing you run the risk of damage from spray or rain or salt air corrosion.

onecoolair · May 10, 2013

....transducer on the stern so that I could get water temp

Both my Humming Bird transducers antennas are gooped to inside of the hull before and aft of keel. One humming bird is at the nav-station and the other at the helm.Both have no problem giving me water temperature or graphic depth information in front of boat or the stern.No holes in the hull or thingy hanging off the back of boat necessary!

katana750 · May 10, 2013

onecoolair said:
Why is a hole in the boat necessary?

For the transducer

katana750 · May 10, 2013

Roadking Larry said:
I understand the difference, but is there enough of an issue on a lake with no tides or currents to worry about? The time lag for GPS is a consideration but again, for this rookie sailor I don't know if it is enough to matter.

I guess it depends on how exact you want to be....I am mostly on lakes so I don't think it would be much of a concern. I have always wonder about how accurate the speed was, but I would think it is not to bad...I am not really that picky but the speed does seem to correlate to how fast I am going ie I have never noticed it reading 7 knots at the same time it is obvious I am slowing down. I am sure somebody out there has done some calculations though.

onecoolair · May 10, 2013

katana750 said:
For the transducer

Why?

MrBill_FLL · May 10, 2013

AFAIK

unless its a cored hull or water ballast you can shoot through the hull with a transducer

onecoolair · May 10, 2013

MrBill_FLL said:
AFAIK

unless its a cored hull or water ballast you can shoot through the hull with a transducer

Thanks ... My point exactly! Don't need no hole.

Sumner · May 10, 2013

onecoolair said:
.....Both have no problem giving me water temperature ....

It will give you the temp at the point of contact on the inside of the hull. If the air, inside of the boat, and the water are all close to the same temps then you will have water temp otherwise it will be off by some, maybe not enough to make much difference?

Here is from our Cuda instructions and I think the others say about the same....

However, the shoot-thru-hull installation does have its drawbacks.
First, some loss of sensitivity does occur, even on the best hulls.......
Fourth, if your Skimmer transducer has a built in temp sensor, it will
only show the temperature of the bilge, not the water surface temp.

Sum

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Kestle · May 10, 2013

I believe the only purpose for a home is for an impeller style knot meter.

Dingy racers use something called. "Speedpuck." I haven't used it, but they are popular. Easy to see in bright sun.

Jeff

walt · May 11, 2013

I also have the BW version in my dingy. It works well for being able to see your speed and depth but the contrast the color provides makes the map a little easier to read (but just a little). The picture was from yesterday on a mile in diameter lake I’ve been sailing on for 20 years so I wasn’t looking at the map but it’s nice to have for the occasional trip to a larger unknown lake. On both the boats I’m using this on, I have the puck that came with it epoxied to shoot through the hull in a non cored spot. Water temp is close enough..

dang.. I think that 30 pound 2.5 hp outboard hung off the transom slows this thing down a little..

Sumner · May 11, 2013

Roadking Larry said:
..Lowrance has discontinued the Cuda 350 and the replacement is the Mark 4 or color screen Elite 4....Bass Pro shop lists the Mark 4 at $199.99.....

I like the Cuda but wouldn't buy it again for reasons I've previously posted and that you are stuck with the one base map of the U.S. that is in it. It is better than the base U.S. map in the handheld Garmin, but not much.

With the Garmin handheld we can at least download waypoints to it. The Mark 4 (I looked) is basically the Cuda but with one big difference. It looks like you can buy maps for it on memory cards. That could be good, but if the maps are expensive then the Garmin 400 series looks better as it comes with either inland lakes or coastal charts which are very good and has the NEMA in and out.

They still haven't added the receive NEMA option to the Mark 4, only has NEMA output and I don't like that but there again if you never plan on going to new water then it isn't needed.

They could easily add a feature or two more to the cheaper (under $400) fishfinder/GPS combos but then I guess the sales of the $400 plus units would really suffer. It comes down to where you sail. We had no need for the GPS in Canada, Idaho or Lake Powell (would of been nice there if you couldn't read a map, but they have mile markers on the lake so it still isn't a problem there). The depth finder did come in very handy in those locals.

Down in Florida a 'true' chart plotter with really good charts and NEMA in/out is a definite advantage but you can get that with a laptop or tablet and a cheap under $75 handheld combination and free OpenCPN and free NOAA charts. As far as navigation was concerned the Cuda (or Mark 4) did very little for us in Florida other than depth and the ability to retrace a track that we had taken before using the computer chartplotter/handheld combo. The Mark 4 with add/on charts would of been better, but how much do those charts cost and you still can't conveniently input waypoints :cry:.

I realize that it might sound like I'm saying don't buy the Mark 4 or some of the similar units. I'm not, just try and make sure that what you do buy covers your needs for the next couple years so that you haven't spent $200-$300 on something that needs to be replaced.

Maybe I missed it but where are you going to be sailing?

Sum

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walt · May 11, 2013

They still haven't added the receive NEMA option to the Mark 4, only has NEMA output and I don't like that but there again if you never plan on going to new water then it isn't needed.

You lose my on this one.. FYI, you can easily enter way points manually on just about any of these units for the .0001 % of the time you might ever do this - especially if the boat is primarily used in a slip. If I ever need to navigate a narrow dredged channel at night in a shipping channel with alligators lining the side, I "might" use way points for this one case and will manually enter them. Heck, I probably wouldn’t even then.

Sumner · May 11, 2013

walt said:
You lose my on this one.. FYI, you can easily enter way points manually on just about any of these units for the .0001 % of the time you might ever do this - especially if the boat is primarily used in a slip. If I ever need to navigate a narrow dredged channel at night in a shipping channel with alligators lining the side, I "might" use way points for this one case and will manually enter them. Heck, I probably wouldn’t even then.

As I said it depends on how you are using the boat. Take it down to Florida or up the east coast going into all new water and being able to transfer waypoints easily to a chart plotter is a big help. It is hard to visualize until you get there.

I could layout the course above in about 2 minutes and see it on the ships computer underway and on the handheld in the cockpit and it was a huge help going from the Gulf Side at Marathon and into Boot Key Harbor at night for the first time.

With the route in the plotter you don't have to see where you are in relation to places you shouldn't be that much. Just look and see if you are on top of the route line or near to it. I do well with charts but Ruth doesn't do as well. With her at the helm following the line and distance to the next turn works very well.

I agree where you are sailing and where we sailed in the West it isn't a big deal but there is a need for some for route planning and downloading the route into the chart plotter. I believe if you buy a higher end Garmin and others they all have route planning software to run on a computer that then allows the route to be downloaded into the chart plotter. We like that feature, others might never use it. Being able to see an area on a chart on a 16 inch monitor is a huge advantage vs. looking at the same area on a 4 or 5 inch screen and having to zoom in and out to see detail,

Sum

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Our Endeavour 37

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Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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basic intruments speed & water depth ??

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