A big step down - updated

Tom G P-21 · Apr 21, 2013

I am biased toward the Precision for obvious reasons. There is a following for these boats on the other board. see link. If you have any questions I would post there.

http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/precision/index.cgi

I started looking at the 18 but when my wife asked about to some offshore destinations and taking along some friends I said it would be too small. That's when she quoted Brody from Jaws and said "You're going to need a bigger boat". Shortly after that I found a 21 and bought it. The Montgomery you're also looking at is a nice boat from what I've read.

Kermit · Apr 21, 2013

Tom G said:
I am biased toward the Precision for obvious reasons.

I'd love to know what those obvious reasons are. Thanks!

Tom G P-21 · Apr 21, 2013

Kermit said:
I'd love to know what those obvious reasons are. Thanks!

That's because I own one!

sailingandsuch · Apr 21, 2013

Hey there! I was in a similar position a few years back and I made the best decision of my life. I bought my Montgomery 17!!!!! I love it! I went from a 29'er to a 17'er for alot of the reasons you have mentioned.

To be honest when I was deciding on a final boat I was really really really liking the Precision 21, really I was. But I ended up going with the Monty 17 since it seems to be a tougher boat and has a better ballast to length ratio which = a boat that can take rough weather better.

That little love of mine does everything I could ask of it and more. We spent a week together (the boat and I) cruising the lower Florida Key's about a year ago and had a blast! Had a few rough days and nights but I felt safe the entire time (partly due to my oversize Rocna anchor and 30' of chain on the rode which is way overkill but I knew I'd stay put)

One thing I just noticed (I pulled up some photos of the P18) is that in the cabin there isn't alot of room in P18 like in the M17. What I am mostly referring to is foot room and more or less a place to sit in the cabin, like a seat, not just on the bed.....

I spent some time sitting in the cabin on my overnighter's on my M17. I would think I'd be less comfortable in that P18 than the M17. Just a thought to keep in mind.

I have some videos of my trips on my Youtube channel if you'd like to check them out here, http://www.youtube.com/user/SailingandSuch.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Also, I think the M17's are harder to find used than a P18. Not sure why but I'd like to think that the M17 owners don't want to sell their great little boats. I know I waited for one to pop up for sale in my area for about 2-3 years and ended up driving about 9 hours one way to get it anyhow (for a steal of a deal too

walt · Apr 21, 2013

My 0.2..

Since you’re not ready to retire so probably can’t spend a lot of time on the boat and possibly want to be somewhat mobile with the boat, your 18 foot choice is about the compromise I would also make if I had just one boat. You also don’t need a huge tow vehicle with this size of boat. One other to add - if you’re in the Denver area, you can drop by Sage in Golden, they make a 17 foot boat similar to the Montgomery 17 - same designer (J. Montgomery).

Im currently sailing three boats for my Colorado pre-retirement years. I have a 26 foot water ballast boat (Macgregor 26S) and it’s the master of trailerablility for its size and it overall sails well.. about 3000 pounds on the trailer and if you don’t make the boat complicated, fast to set up, mine takes me about 40 minutes total by myself. That setup and trailerability is why I keep it (and really overall meets my tradeoffs at the moment). However, the zebra mussel crap limits you on moving the water ballast boat from lake to lake in this area. The problem is that there is no way to inspect the water tank. Colorado is real anal on this now so I just keep that boat in Arizona where I visit it. You can deal with the water ballast here - its just adds a level of complication. In Colorado, I end up day sailing a 15 foot planning dingy and also a Hobie Adventure Island and part of the reason is that both of these are very easy to set up/ travel with and also the Zebra inspection is easy so never an issue. My planning dingy has a centerboard that folds up into the hull so it can’t be inspected for the mussels but that has not been any sort of issue. A keel you can see is of course the best for inspection but that also makes launching more complicated.

Also, since you’re now looking in the pocket cruiser size range.. In February at Lake Havasu Arizona there is an event that attracts over 200 boats in the 15 to 26 foot range including a ton of Montgomery 15 and 17's (sailhavasu.com). This event is in Feb, not too far from Durango. Unfortunately Feb just passed but that is a great place to inspect a lot of different types of boats and also talk to the owners – and its been great sailing the last three years Ive gone.

sailingandsuch · Apr 21, 2013

Couldn't help myself, I just love this photo!

That was taken last May in the Keys at Bahia Honda State Park. I have the Montgomery 17 in "camp mode" I guess you could say with the owning over the cockpit/companionway. This thing is a tough little cruiser that should fair you well if you decide to own one.

That night I was even able to string up a hammock in the cockpit! Although I wasn't able to sleep very well in it, not much hammock experience in my book.

smo · Apr 22, 2013

I'm in your same boat. I turn 60 next month and am on course to retire at 62. I live in the great lakes and hope to purchase a nice used boat but something a bit larger than your 17 footer options
I'm looking for a fin keel boat in the 20 - 27 foot range and something a bit more high performance than your options (freedom 21 or 25, capri 22 or 25, merit 25, moore 24, santa cruz 27 are on my short list)
i have a place nearby where i can set a mooring for free
i'd like to get a boat with a trailer so i can pull it home at the end of the season.

your trailerable options are good if you plan to broaden your horizons by trailering from one cruising area to another. i plan to daysail on lake michigan and do some singlehanded passages on the lakes

your 17 footers will be easily trailered by a medium sized car.

Your 25000 budget will be plenty especially if you can locate a nicely maintained used model. Do balk on used and many used models have lots of options added by the previous owners.

make sure you checdk out each model and try out the cabins for size.
precision makes some larger models with significantkly larger cabin space
they are all reasonable to launch at a normal ramp. you might need a bit bigger tow vehicle though if you plan to do a lot of trailer cruising

good luck in your shopping

Smo

sesmith · Apr 22, 2013

Another possibility might be a West Wight Potter 19. They seem to have a kind of cult following. We recently went with a larger boat, but I've seen a couple of Potters over the years and like the looks of them. They would be high on my list of boats to check out if I were looking for a boat that size. No real experience with one though...just admired them from afar. The Hunter 23.5, that I recently sold, was also an easy boat to trailer.

potteryachters · Apr 22, 2013

I would look at the Potter 19. I have owned one for almost 13 years and have sailed some pretty interesting places with it. For example I have sailed the California Coast from San Francisco to San Diego. There is ample room for two people, and the new interior on the Potter 19 is more user friendly. By the way I am 6' 2" and have done some overnights with a friend who is 6' 3".

mdsdurango said:
Update; All day at the computer yesterday digging deep into pocket cruisers.
First - I want a boat to keep for a very long time. I like to think that I am simple enough to repress the need for a bigger boat. Someone on another thread recommended being a “boat bum”. I like this idea a lot. Mainly because I’m poor. OK not really poor, but poor enough to know I can’t have an Alden 54. I'll ride on someone elses big boat - or rent one if and when I need it. I turn 60 this month. My house is paid off. I've some money in the bank. $25,000.00 is no doubt a good chunk of change - but over the next , , remainder of my life, I hope to get in some good sailing in as many and as distant locations as my heart desires. Eventually I can leave a great little boat to my sailor nephew. Fifteen years or more of simple sailing make the investment seem worthwhile.
So I have settled on 18’ as a good size for me and unless I can find a one owner used in excellent condition I see new as my best option. BTW, this will be my fourth boat. Ownership is not entirely new to me. My final boat needs to be small enough to barley notice when being towed, big enough to sleep in for two or three nights (two bodies at most), and strong enough to be in blue(er) water.
One boat I discovered yesterday has a very strong cult following; the Montgomery 15 & 17. I like the 17 just for its size.
Compared to the Precision;
LOA; P – 17’5”, M – 17’2”…
LWL; P – 15’5”, M – 15’10”
Beam; P – 7’5”, M – 7’4”
Draft; P – 1’6”, M – 1’9” Board up
Draft; P – 4’3” M – 3’ Board down
Disp; P – 1100 lbs M – 1600 lbs
Ballast; P – 350 lbs M – 600 lbs
Sails; P – 145 sf M – 154 sf
It seems to me that the Montgomery wins on several comps; shorter boat / longer water line, shorter boat / greater sail area, greater ballast weight for stability. But I’m not confident in my conclusions. I’m asking for advice.

New these boats are very similar in price with trailer. The Montgomery’s have a very strong contingency that I don't find with the Precisions
They are built in southern California, close to where I would like to land in another five years.
And they are damn cute.

So?

Thanks as always!

Steve Connell · Apr 22, 2013

Beneteau First 20 --- J 70

martin perl · Apr 22, 2013

If you can see yourself stretching the size a bit, Nonsuch 22 is a nice cat rigged boat. Not too many around though.

Dexter · Apr 22, 2013

I've had a ball on Saginaw Bay, Thunder Bay, and Grand Traverse Bay with my O'Day 20.

sailingandsuch · Apr 22, 2013

Durango,

Thanks for the photo compliment! And thanks for Subscribing!

Indeed, there are more people out there looking for them than selling them. I'm telling you, if you can find one, it's one heck of a boat. I hope to keep mine for quite some time. But looking at the ones for sale on there makes it pretty tempting to sell mine..... but I'd be kicking myself down the road..... I love that thing way to much.

There is even a guy wanting to trade a Beneteau for one!

AnchorDragger · Apr 22, 2013

Reality check

Please tell me that you aren't planning to retire with just $25K in investments/savings and (going bankrupt) Social Security. If that's the case you should not be thinking about buying any boat. :cry:

Don't buy a new boat unless you have money to burn. New sailboats depreciate rapidly. After ten years prices level off with condition replacing age as the prime driver of price. In my opinion a ten or eleven year old boat gives you the most bang for the buck. You avoid the fast depreciation rates of the first ten years and you avoid most of the old boat problems. You can count on gradually improved building techniques and materials for those popular builders who have been in business for decades, like Catalina and Beneteau. And a ten year old boat hasn't had as much time to accumulate problems and bad repairs.

Wind River R41 · Apr 22, 2013

norsea 27

shnool · Apr 22, 2013

Not made anymore but the Capri 18 is really a 20 footer, and would fit the bill. It's a lot more boat than the Precision 18. it has a lot more room as well. It's also a fixed wing keel, instead of a keel/centerboard (meaning less maintenance) but 2.5' of draw. It sails like a slug though, but I is pretty sea kindly by comparison. I'd put it in the WWP19 seaworthiness.

The Capri 18 is on the heavy side pushing #2500 boat and trailer.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4856 Owners of these boats rarely sell them, as they sail reasonably well, hold their value nicely, and generally are easy to get parts for, truly an easy keeper. The newer ones have no teak above deck so are also low maintenance.

I wanted to upgrade from a Capri 14.2 to an 18, but found the price points to be silly when I could buy a Capri 22 all day long for less than the 18 (used of course). Even new the financing actually pushed me towards the 22 (they were at an odd price point were you could finance 4 more years and spend the same monthly and get a bigger boat). So yeah, I've looked into this (A LOT)...

I did eventually buy and own a Capri 22 Wing Keel standard rig. That boat was about the toughest little trailerable I've seen. Easy to launch/retrieve myself. I managed to setup an A-Frame mast raising system (I could do 1 handed). I just thought that boat was simple/great to sail and easy to tow... That boat/package was every bit of #3500 though.

Now I sail a Capri 25. Not sure why I keep ending back at the Capri line of boats but I do. I love Precision boats, and I think the P18 is a great boat, and considered it and the 165 as step up boats as well, even the 21. So count me in as also saying it's a good choice.

The WWP 19 is a great boat as well.

Finally if cruising comfort is your gig, and trailerable, and easy to sail/rig.. you might want to consider a used com-pacyacht. The horizon cat is NOT cheap, even used, but it's a heckuva lot of boat for the size. http://www.com-pacyachts.com/trailerable-catboats/horizon-cat.html if money is a huge deal, and you wanna day sail only... then try the picnic cat.

I am terrible at recommending boats other than precision, catalina, and com-pac though.

As others have said, if you want go fast fun, there is always the J/70.

The P165 is really too small... the P18 is light/nimble, and hits a lot of buttons. The Capri 18 is heavier, but more cruiserish, the Compac Horizon Cat is all cruisers.

Steve Garth · Apr 22, 2013

mdsdurango said:
Update; All day at the computer yesterday digging deep into pocket cruisers.
First - I want a boat to keep for a very long time. I like to think that I am simple enough to repress the need for a bigger boat. Someone on another thread recommended being a “boat bum”. I like this idea a lot. Mainly because I’m poor. OK not really poor, but poor enough to know I can’t have an Alden 54. I'll ride on someone elses big boat - or rent one if and when I need it. I turn 60 this month. My house is paid off. I've some money in the bank. $25,000.00 is no doubt a good chunk of change - but over the next , , remainder of my life, I hope to get in some good sailing in as many and as distant locations as my heart desires. Eventually I can leave a great little boat to my sailor nephew. Fifteen years or more of simple sailing make the investment seem worthwhile.
So I have settled on 18’ as a good size for me and unless I can find a one owner used in excellent condition I see new as my best option. BTW, this will be my fourth boat. Ownership is not entirely new to me. My final boat needs to be small enough to barley notice when being towed, big enough to sleep in for two or three nights (two bodies at most), and strong enough to be in blue(er) water.
One boat I discovered yesterday has a very strong cult following; the Montgomery 15 & 17. I like the 17 just for its size.
Compared to the Precision;
LOA; P – 17’5”, M – 17’2”…
LWL; P – 15’5”, M – 15’10”
Beam; P – 7’5”, M – 7’4”
Draft; P – 1’6”, M – 1’9” Board up
Draft; P – 4’3” M – 3’ Board down
Disp; P – 1100 lbs M – 1600 lbs
Ballast; P – 350 lbs M – 600 lbs
Sails; P – 145 sf M – 154 sf
It seems to me that the Montgomery wins on several comps; shorter boat / longer water line, shorter boat / greater sail area, greater ballast weight for stability. But I’m not confident in my conclusions. I’m asking for advice.

New these boats are very similar in price with trailer. The Montgomery’s have a very strong contingency that I don't find with the Precisions
They are built in southern California, close to where I would like to land in another five years.
And they are damn cute.

So?

Thanks as always!

My situation is similar to yours, and I just bought a 2004 Catalina 18 (aka Capri 18) in almost-like-new condition, with trailer. Looks gorgeous, wing keel, tows very easily. These sail very well, and in fact one was famously sailed to Hawaii back when the C18 was introduced in the late '80s. (Note that this is not the same boat as the larger and more expensive Catalina 18 series II made since 2005).

I'd recommend checking the C18 out if you haven't already.

Steve