New guy on board

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 30, 2013

Larry;

When trailering, there are alot many will tell you.

First, I would suggest a swing keel or a low permanent keel for a couple of reasons. First, it is easier to get on and off the trailer whereas a fixed keel will be more difficult not to mention the windage and the center of gravity is much higher. If you are looking for a Catalina 22, suggest that you look at the swing keel but if an older boat have it surveyed as most insurance companies will require it. The best trailer for that is the Road King trailer built for the Sport 22 which will also work for the swing keel Catalina 22.

The smaller boats will allow you to raise and lower the mast by yourself. The larger you go, the more difficult and with the Catalina 22, it will take 2 people to do this unless you have a mast raise system of sorts. The Sport Catalina 22 is offered with a mast raise system if you are able to find one of those but if it does not come with it, then you can add the mast raise system easily.

When looking at boats, the biggest question is what are you going to do with a boat? If day sail only, then smaller as you will be sailing inland. If you want to stay on the boat, then a 22 or even one of the Hunter water ballast boats would suffice as the Hunters were designed to be launched by one person, standard with a mast raise system, etc.. Again, your response will depend on what you want to do and the smaleler is much more manageable unless the larger boat was designed for the trailer sailer. Hope this helps you.

crazyd dave condon

tkanzler · Mar 30, 2013

You should tell us what you plan to tow with, as well as how you plan to use it. Kids? Guests? Solo? Overnight or daysailer? VW Beatle or dually pickup? Local or long distance towing? Those sorts of things matter.

I can launch and haul my boat myself, and it has a (relatively) huge standing room cabin with enclosed head, but it's not a particularly good sailer, and I knew it going in (I can tow a wakeboarder, though). If I didn't have to accomadate the admiral and kids on wakeboards while scratching my sailing itch, I'd have a different boat.

Next boat will probably be a catamaran or trimaran to scratch my need for speed, once I don't have to make other interests happy. I've done the dock queen thing, and may go back to keel boats if I move to a salt water area when (if) I retire, as destination options around here are just too limiting.

Water ballast makes towing easier for a given boat size.

Lots of considerations. More info is needed for meaningful suggestions.

Merlin Clark · Mar 30, 2013

All the boats you list are fine boats and the 22s will have a TON more room than the 16. +1 for Crazy Daves reccommendation on shallow draft/swing keel.
There is one type I'd add to the list and that is the keel centerboard. With these boats (actually the Compac is a keel/CB boat) at least most of the ballast is in the fixed keel rather than in a swing keel and the centerboard will more than likely only have enough weight to make sure it doesn't float. While the pivot pin and raising mechanism still need periodic maintenance, it is much easier than dealing with a huge hunk of cast iron hanging below the boat. With mine, the centerboard is roughly 60 lbs and that's only because it has a hefty steel plate embbedded in the fiberglass. I handle it (remove and re-install) without heavy equipment, dollies, draft horses etc.
These boats do have more draft than the swing keels but also can be sailed with the board up.
Precision, Spindrift, Starwind and O'day boats in that range are keel centerboard boats.
Not saying the keel/CB is the best but it works very well for me and is an option, kind of a happy medium between the fixed and swing keel boats. These boats, in my experience, sail better than their swing keel counter parts but I've only owned 2 and sailed a few others so my view may be skewed.
Another thing is condition, if you can get a rough one for a couple grand and one that has been taken care of is double that, I'd go with the better one. Everything having to do with boats seems to cost about 10x what it should and the savings on the rough one wil get eaten up pretty fast, not to mention the work involved and time missed on the water.

Tom G P-21 · Mar 30, 2013

I would recommend getting the book "The Complete Trailer Sailor". It goes over what to look in a boat. How you are going to use it and different styles of boats. I read it before I started my search and glad I did. Also questions similar to this have been asked before here, see thread.

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=146294&highlight=complete+trailer+sailor

Merlin Clark · Mar 30, 2013

You can get the Kindle book for 10 bucks: http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Trailer-Sailor-Sailboats/dp/0071472584

watercolors II · Mar 30, 2013

Smaller is better

My 20 years of sailing a Catalina 22 and also have sailed the other boats you listed on a small lake tells me I would recommend the Compac 16 and my reason is;

First as mentioned by Crazy Dave is the size and the problems with launching and retrieving a trailered sailboat EVERY TIME you want to go sailing! It takes longer to retrieve and make road-ready a sailboat than it does to setup and launch. The launch ramp recovery time is longer because there's no sailboat’s trailer completely setup for a simple recovery, the trailer has to be in a perfect position, the wind, waves, and other boats causes a different problem every time. Launching doesn’t have these problems, back it into the water, unhook the bow eye and the boat will float or slide off and tie to the dock. Then the tear down is easier but the time is increased because everything must be tied down in a precise manner for the highway and also, so you can set it all backup the next time without getting everything tangled up.

It takes two people to raise the mast on a boat longer than 19 feet. Myself and my 22, I can setup and launch and ready to sail in a little over an hour with help! It has taken me many years of setup to accomplish this, I had to develop a certain mastery and make many modifications to the rigging to reduce setup time. Mast raising equipment makes it easy for one person, it doesn’t save time, it adds time. So when I hear someone say they can do it in less than an hour, I say their watch or sense of time is off by 50 percent. So think about this, 1 hour to and from, 1.5 hours before and over 1.5 hours after, it’s going to be a long day for a sail with a 22 foot boat.

You said that you have someone to teach you to sail, discuss this with him or other boat owners at one of these lakes so you can see what they are talking about.

Second the sail controls on that Compac are much simpler to use than on a 22 and there are less of them to learn to understand. A boat this small, you’ll not want to add all the apparatuses the fellows on this blog want to add to their 22’s. So a smaller boat is easier to sail, learn to sail and cheaper to maintain.

You said that you have someone to teach you to sail, discuss this with him or other boat owners at one of these lakes so you can see what they are talking about.

Third, you said nothing about your family or friends that may be sailing with you. After one year launching, recovering, and sailing a 16 foot, and maybe a long weekend trip somewhere else and they and you want to do this again next year?

Fourth, your first investment into sailing is not money lost, whatever “sailboat” you buy will be worth what you paid for it a couple years from now, so rereading my third reason for buying the 16 foot boat and you want to move up to a bigger boat then all that original investment is not lost. Example; my 22 was used when I bought it and I now have owned it for over 20 years, it’s worth $1000.00 less than when I bought it!

Sailing is so different most norms don’t apply. I still learn something new almost every time I go sailing. All the old sailors started on small boats and they will all tell you they never regretted that and most of them will also tell you they want to go back to those smaller boats because of their simplicity.

SycloneDriver · Mar 30, 2013

Larry,

It's good to see you on the forum.

I like the San Juan 23. Still trailable but it has lot more cabin space than a most/all 22ft boats. It was my first sailboat.

I've seen both of his tow vehicles. Larry, if you would please post some pictures of the "cool" one. I think a lot of the forum members would like to see it.

I would suggest a visit to to dock. Get to know the active sailors. Many of them would be happy to take you sailing and then you will be able to make a more informed purchase.

I should be launching my boat in the next few days. I'll give you a call.

tkanzler · Mar 30, 2013

If you want a keel/centerboard boat, consider the Aquarius 21 and 23. Not the prettiest boats out there (especially the A23), and not particularly speedy sail boats, but they're built like tanks, and have a lot of room for their size, plus the A23 only needs 13" of water, so it's easy on/off. The swing centerboard is a slab of steel, and with most of the ballast fixed (skiff keel), they're stable beyond 90 degrees even with the centerboard all the way up. They were built throughout the 70s and into the 80s as family boats; essentially floating station wagons, and towable with the family station wagon (or family Truckster) at 1900 and 2300 lb displacement (plus O/B and trailer and whatever). The Ensinada and Balboa lines were from the same manufacturer, and the A23 eventually was renamed Balboa 23.

The C22 is a better sailer, though, and a jillion of them have been made. You can't go wrong with one of them, and there are forums specific to that model, so you'll always get all the help you could ever want. Plus, Catalina is still in business.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=31

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=82

Merlin Clark · Mar 30, 2013

This is what a keel/centerboard looks like

If the boats lateral resistance and ballast is in the moving appendage then it is a swing keel boat.

Merlin Clark · Mar 30, 2013

Very, very cool!

dscribner · Mar 30, 2013

Larry,

All great input. The Complete Trailer Sailor, great book. Good advice from all even if some tend to conflict slightly. My experience with our Lancer 25 has been similar. 2 people to set up and launch. Keep an eye on the depth though we have launched in about 3 1/2 feet. As far as set-up, once you get good at it, you're looking at 1/2 hour. We can do it in that time if we hurry a little, and ours is a bit larger that the average trailerable. We trailer her every time we sail too, so that's probably how we've become season steppers. At any rate, enjoy the excitement and post pics.

Don

Tom G P-21 · Mar 30, 2013

If you can't find "The Complete Trailer Sailor" at your local library, it looks like you can buy a hard copy from the author.

http://www.sailingsmall.com/Book.html

rgranger · Mar 31, 2013

Roadking...

You opened a can of worms....

You asked about "boat killers".

LOOK HARD AT THE INTEGRITY OF THE KEEL. Everything else is easy to fix.

I started out with a MacGregor V21, It was an okay boat. Easy to launch. I had to remove the keel and rip off several coats of fiberglass, remove rust scale etc. HUGE job.

If the keel looks like it needs a major refurbishing... and you want to sail THIS season, then walk away from that boat.

Some other great trailerable boats to consider (and I've sailed and owned each of these)...

Rhodes 22' (my favorite in the 22' range) (see pic)
MacGregor V22-2 (I just sold one and absolutely loved it). (see pic)
Coronado 23' (Great boat, lots of interior room, shoal fixed keel). (see pic)

Some of these guys mentioned not being able to step a mast on a 22' boat by yourself. I'm not sure why they have this opinion. The Rhodes was a b*tch and I'd agree there but the Mac 22' was a snap. I had a book crutch that fit into the same gudgeons that the rudder sits in... it would tilt the mast up a few degrees. Then I'd stand on the cabin top facing backwards and reach down between my lets and just lift it into place. The only rigging that I uncoupled was the fourstay. I could have my Mac ready to sail, in the water with engine at idle in 25 min.

The Catalina's have a better reputation and cost more but the Mac is a fast sailing boat and can be made very comfortable. They can be found in good condition with good trailers and outboards for $3000.

One last thing .... when buying a starter boat that was manufactured in the 1970's.... you should consider the boat and rigging as FREE and you are buying the sails, outboard and trailer. Look hard at those things. The hull can look like hell, but a pressure was and a dab of rustoleum will make the hull look great again. Stainless steel wire rope can be purchased at Tractor supply, but if you start buying outboards, trailers and sails, you will spend thousands more dollars.

Joe11688 · Mar 31, 2013

Years ago, I had to make the choice of which sloop to buy in the boat show. I knew that I was going to trailer my boat and never leave it in the water on a mooring which I finally wound up doing years later when I joined a local YC.

The dealer I went through sold new O'Days and Catalinas on trailers. The small O'Days 192, 222 were on roller trailers and the Catalinas were on bunk trailers. Through many years of experience I realized that it's a lot easier to load and unload a boat from a roller trailer. Of course, there are exceptions and some boats can be floated off and on from bunk trailers.

I later found out that this was true with the O'Day 222. I trailered it for eight years raising and lowering the mast myself almost every weekend in the summer. There are probably other boats that can trailer just as easy as the O'Days. The Mac boats make perfect trailerable sloops.

The Tanzer 22 is a fast boat on the water but I'm quite sure that they have cast iron swing keels which can be a problem. The masts are very heavy and according to the owner's manual, you shouldn't raise or lower it with the side stays connected or you'll bend the chainplates. It's a great boat to leave in the water.

Most of the sloops out there with the exception of the Mac sloops will need certain mods in order to raise/lower the masts. I had to construct a mast crutch for my boat after I bought it.
I raise my mast from aft and I've always been able to do this by myself with no Gin Pole. I had to build a Gin Pole later when I installed my CDI Roller Furler and today I no longer trailer-sail. The boat sits on a mooring behind the YC and I'm a slave to the bottom paint.

So, when considering a trailer-sailer you need to make sure that the boat is going to be easy to load and unload at any ramp and that it's going to be fast and easy to raise/lower the mast.

I think it's great to be able to bring your boat home and park it in the yard after each use. I also think it's great to trailer it to different ramps. We used to trailer our 86 O'Day 222 behind our Delta 88 Olds to Mattapoiset Ma. and sail over to Cuttyhunk in the Elizabeth Islands and also Martha's Vineyard. We'd be gone for a week.
We anchored everywhere we went and never rented a slip or mooring. We cooked on the boat and took showers. Believe me. We had a blast!

You may want to think about joining a boat club on the lake. You may be able to just leave your boat sitting on the trailer with the mast up when it's not in use. I did this for years. I also left my boat on an empty club mooring for a week and then pulled it out. If you can get away without using bottom paint, go for it.

Myself, I like keel/centerboard sloops but I think the water ballast sloops have advantages. I know that some of the guys out there are fond of drop keels. Personally, I prefer a centerboard or keel/centerboard sloop.

I think that you'll also find that almost every make of sailboat has their issues. My O'Day 222 had a poorly constructed rudder blade. I broke two of them and I know this to be a fact.
The older O'Day 23s built prior to 1974 had cast iron keels and the fiberglass centerboards wood get stuck due to rust.

The Quick step sloops have the centerboard pendant line embedded into the Fiberglas board. This can sure present a problem if you need to replace it. Great boat though, and a fast sailer.

So in your search for the right boat, ask a lot of questions first and then make your choice. I got lucky when I made my choice. Maybe you will too.
Good Luck!
Joe

finding41 · Mar 31, 2013

MacGregor 26D, 26S. Light, easy to sail, fast, sleeps 6, tons of storage room, fast, easy to launch and retrieve, launch in 45 min, by your self, both have a dagger board/keel that goes completely into the hull for beaching, fast.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4099
Good luck.

rgranger · Apr 1, 2013

finding41 said:
MacGregor 26D, 26S. Light, easy to sail, fast, sleeps 6, tons of storage room, fast, easy to launch and retrieve, launch in 45 min, by your self, both have a dagger board/keel that goes completely into the hull for beaching, fast.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4099
Good luck.

:+1:

Or the Mac 25.

The Macs are great coastal cruisers with an unjustified bad rep. The upside of that is you can find them in decent shape, on a decent trailer, with decent sails for under $4,000.

Crazy Dave Condon · Apr 1, 2013

Rpad King Larry;

Alot of wisdom and good advice; however, the biggest question is what you want to do with the boat. If daysail only, obviously the smaller boats but if you want to stay on board overnight, then how many. I always heard about the friends who would come with you. Remember this boat is for your family and you which is the main focus.

I would highly recommend once you get a trailerable boat, learn the art of raising and lowering at home first versus your first time out. In addiition, take some time off one day during the week and take the boat to a ramp to specfically put the boat on and off the trailer when there are no folks there as a courtesy to others during your learning stage. Fair winds and God Bless.

crazy dave condon

New guy on board

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.

.

.