zinc saver

Oct 30, 2019
12
Hi All,

I have a quick question for the electrical experts on this list. I'm installing some basic AC system with a battery charger and I'd like some advice about stopping galvanic corrosion. I'm going to connect the AC earth to the DC ground, as I've been convinced that this is the safest thing to do, so I've been told I'll need to install a 'zinc saver' diode to stop my prop falling off.

What is everyone's experience of this? Also, most of the information I've seen seems to suggest that the diodes should be installed between the boat connection and the main switch. However, it would be much easier for me to put the zinc saver in the wire between the AC earth and the DC ground. Now the appliances and the charger are on the AC earth side of the diodes, rather than on the DC ground side. As long as the battery charger is galvanically isolated, would this be a problem?

Sorry for the complicated question, perhaps I've been thinking about this for too long...

Tom
 
Oct 31, 2019
40
Hi Tom
I am an electrician, Way back in the day when I bought my first cruising
boat it had wiring issues. When the marine electrician came onboard I was
immediately given the lecture after he saw grounding. He and everyone
electrically oriented I have worked with since absolutely isolate the AC/DC
systems. The only time they connect is through a battery charger connected
between the AC and the DC batteries and even that is marine grade with 100%
isolation, NEVER use a car type battery charger on your boat unless the
battery is totally disconnected from the electrical system.

In the following years I also took the courses and became certified to wire
boats AC and DC. I have seen soooo much happen over the years, fires, damage
and cases of props totally dissapearing and pitted shafts in a 2-3 month
period. I have seen it all, tried it all and heard it all in the last 20
years.

Here are the reasons (condensed) All outlets are 3 pin, the small blade of
a plug (black wire) is hot, the larger blade (white) is neutral, power
leaves the small one, runs appliance, and returns to the large one. If the
appliance is metal cased the case is usually grounded with the round pin
(green or bare copper wire) Now when the power re-enters the outlet after
passing through your appliance it is riding the neutral wire back to shore.
What most dont know is neutral and ground are electrically connected on most
boats and on the hard, and neutral is connected to ground on many phone
poles so that the power looking to return to ground can do so down the
copper wires leading down the pole.

To make it easier picture this, The guy at the end of the dock runs his air
cond, the power runs through it, then back to neutral in his outlet, chances
are his neutral and ground are connected together in his boat. That power
now heads back up the dock looking to go "home" or to ground to complete the
circuit. It is riding on the neutral wire and the ground wire since they are
joined in many boats. Electricity always takes the shortest route.

Now 1/2 way up the dock here's Tom's boat, His AC ground (common with the
guy at the end) is connected with his DC ground, which is his engine, shaft,
zinc's etc so it's FAR shorter to jump over to your boat and ground via your
prop etc than to go all the way back up the dock, so it uses you every time.

It leaves the dock plug, runs to your deck plug then straight to your
breaker panel, from your ground/neutral bus bar it follows your DC ground to
your engine, then travels through the transmission to your shaft. At this
point power passes through the transmission bearings to get to the output
shaft and if severe enough can burn and pit them. Now once in the shaft it
leaves the boat and jumps from your shaft/wheel into the water, which is
electricitys favorite home.

Now a diode turns AC into DC but does NOTHING to slow down the flow of
current so it still flows. If you turn the diode so that it only flows from
the engine/dc towards the AC panel to leave the boat there is no point, you
already have the worlds best ground, a prop with a zinc and that is the
shortest route to ground. Electrons will not opt to travel the long path (AC
system) to get back to the beach so there's no point. If you ran a bare
copper wire to the beach from your engine it would still leave via the
shaft/wheel because thats the shortest path to ground.

I hope this didn't complicate it too bad, to demonstrate to people I used
to take a zinc with a wire and a clip and clip it to their AC panel ground,
then hang it over the side, the following weekend the zinc was history and
the end of the wire was also. Yes they had neutral and ground back up the
dock, but the zinc was closer.

You can also take a voltmeter and touch it between the AC ground and DC
ground and watch it move the second you plug in your boat even if everything
is turned off in the boat, your the new common ground for the dock., current
will always flow diode or not, and when current flows your zinc goes with
it.

If anyone has electrical questions AC or DC, needs help with wiring things
(radios, radar, pumps etc) feel free, I am also a certified marine mechanic
.

Claude
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Hi Tom

I have had AC and DC on my Vega for over 12 years and never had a prop
drop off yet!

There is a device called a Galvanic Isolator that is available on Ebay
but I have never used one so cannot cooment on their effectiveness.

Cheers

Steve Birch (Technical)
 
Aug 3, 2005
66
Hi Steve,

I assume that you do attach the AC earth to the DC ground on Southern Comfort?

Cheers,
Tom
(V1619 Debonair)
 
Oct 31, 2019
562
Hi Steeve;
Happy New Year! And safe sailing!

What Claude wrote is absolutely true! You may be lucky that
you never had any galvanic problems, but I assure you, I've
seen them too. My Vega is in a boat yard, and about 80% of
all repair can be traced to galvanic problems! Most boaters
don't have the slightest idea about electricity and what it
can do. I fear the most those boaters who use these so
called 'trickle chargers'. There are also a lot of so
called 'Marine Chargers' on the market yet they have
nothing to do with marine environment. I, for one, ask
boaters near my slip what charger they use (and found out
the majority used car battery chargers or these 'so called
'marine chargers'.) Like Caude says, if a car battery
charger is used and the dockside AC goes to the charger,
and from there directly to the battery- no grounding- no
damage can occur.

I use a good battery charger (no AC out), yet when I go
home, I have a switch for + and another one for -, and
whatever electricity flows it can only from dockside
directly to the batteries, and like you, I never had an
electrical problem.

Wilhelm, V-257
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
That's the most easily understood explanation of this problem I have ever read.Journeyman

Nicholas Walsh
Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial Street
Portland Maine 04101
Tel. 207/772-2191
fax 207/774-3940

This email was sent from the law firm of Nicholas H. Walsh P.A. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect that you were not intended to receive this email, please delete it and notify us as soon as possible. Thank you.
 
Jan 28, 2001
694
Claude, Thanks, I've never heard it explained so well. You've cleared up a
few mysterys for me.
Walt, S/V Lyric
 
Aug 3, 2005
66
Hi Claude,

Just to close off this thread, after reading about 50 almost identical
alarmist articles on the web saying that I should connect the AC and DC
grounds, the only convincing argument for me refers to fresh water (which
doesn't conduct very well) rather than salt water (which conducts a similar
amount to the green wire). In salt water, your boat is effectively grounded
anyway, so there's no need to add to this - the GFI/RCD will trip on any
fault. In fresh water it might not if the fault makes the DC part live, as
the current through the water might be too small. Also, as fresh water
doesn't conduct, you don't get so much of the galvanic current through the
boat that you described. So the web consensus seems to be:

- salt water - don't connect between AC, DC and bonding.
- fresh water - do connect between AC, DC and bonding (and don't swim
anywhere near a boat with an AC connection).

As I see it, the difference is where connecting the engine block to the AC
live no longer trips the GFI/RCD (I'm not suggesting anyone does this!!).
In fresh water, apparently, it might not, which is very hazardous for
swimmers. In salt water (like my boat) there's no problem. Maybe you have
a different experience here.

The other (less convincing for me) argument for the connection was that the
shorepower ground might be bad. If you haven't connected AC earth and DC
ground, this leaves you with no AC earth at all, and if the battery charger
box becomes live for example, you might be part of the circuit that trips
the RCD (ouch!). I suppose you should check the earth connection when you
plug in (but even then, I understand that there's no perfect way to do this)
and you should certainly press the test button on the RCD every so often.
If anyone wants to inform me about other reasons, I'd be very happy to get
emails off the list. I'm very consious that this isn't a directly vega
related issue. And of course, I'm just repeating what other people have
said - if I've got something here seriously wrong, maybe someone should
correct me!

Cheers,
Tom

p.s. I'm still amazed that people connect the neutral and earth wires on
their boats...
 
Oct 31, 2019
40
Hi Steve
Sure, no problem at all. On a side note I completely forgot to relay an
experience I had only 3 weeks ago at a dock in Warwick, Rhode Island. An
owner called me and told me he thought his dock did not have enough power.
He was a liveaboard who had not left the dock in two years.

Ok so I go there and if his TV, lights, heater were on all was fine, if he
used the microwave, stove or oven he had a brown out. The first thing I did
was get my adapter from the shore power three pin down to regular houseold
three pin and the little three led tester I carry. It is all one piece with
LED's on it to show Ok, reverse polarity, no neutral, no ground and ground
fault. It plugs directly in a wall outlet.

Ok so I plug into the dock and all is green, Plug into his end of his shore
power line and all is good, I plug it directly into his boat outlet and it
goes ballistic. Next I check his power panel. Ahhhh look at this. His
neutral and ground were bonded, and the neutral had corroded away years ago
apparently, so he never knew and he had been returning ALL his power through
the common ground to the dock and all his neighbors who were also
incorrectly bonded. This finally and apparently this season burned away what
was not corroded and now the only return path was the bonding on the boat.

Yes his DC electrical system and engine were common bonded with the AC
ground. His prop/shaft/zinc were conductive enough to the water (a mostly
freshwater river around 10 US miles from the ocean) to allow almost all his
boat to run correctly and he never knew. We ran new wire from his shore
power plug to his panel, disconnect his DC ground from the system and he's
good to go now. However I dare say he has a swiss cheese prop or non
existant prop at this time. We're talking 10-20 amps contunuous discharge
for several months here.....

The short of it is has his neutral and ground not been bonded he'd have
known immediately when a problem arose before any damage was done. Secondly
that little $5 tester I have he now owns and I have another. I have one in
each of my boats and at least 20-25% of the docks I visit have either
reversed polarity, a ground fault or a neutral fault and I immediately
disconnect from their system. Sure it will work but my zinc pays the price
and then I do in the end. I once asked both Viking yachts and Ocean yachts
WHY they bond neutral and ground on their boats and the response I got was
"If there is a ground or neutral problem on the docks, and many have them
then nothing works and they call about wiring problems. If we bond them
everything works, they dont call and it's less hassle" My next question was
why couldnt they put a simple tester aboard and wire the boat correctly so
the owner can see it's the dock's problem. They both said they were
implementing that as were most companies now. Keep in mind this was several
years ago and I indeed see panels so equipped now. But this doesn't help
those who have the old school system.

In the end it's your life, your equipment, your boat and your
responsibility to make sure it's done correctly. I also survey, and at my
last seminar it came down that we are to now look for this very bonding
problem, and we are asked to list it in the survey if it's incorrect. We
dont HAVE to but we are asked to. Also a large american insurance company
recently (fall of 05) had me survey a burned boat, I found common bonding
for the engine, ground and neutral. The fire started of all places in the
bilge, starboard aft at the rudder bearing just behind and below an old
seepy diesel tank. The bonding wire had heated and burned in two. The area
was storage, old life jackets, oil, cleaning rags, old dock lines, you get
the picture. The problem is why did it burn? Answer was an electric heater
and other things were running, a common bond grounding system and the total
loss of ground and neutral at his broken down old power jack on the dock.
SO.... instead of his appliances dying they continued to operate and all
return power went to the closest ground to his panel, which was that rudder
bearing and aluminium rudder and zinc. It was only 16ga wire and wouldnt
take it, it heated, the rags or whatever caught and thats that. Others saw
the smoke, uses hoses and extinguishers and put it out but not before the
boat had enough damage to make it a CTL. (Complete total loss) uneconomical
to repair.

Now it's in litigation and will be for quite awhile because who's at fault.
His boat was wired incorrectly or it would have never happened, However had
the dock been wired correctly it would not have happened either. Even when I
reconnected the wires on the dock I found the neutral to still be dead and
it was still reverse polarity. Had he or the boats prior to him been
correctly wired, they and the dock owner would have known because nothing on
the boat would have worked. Had the boat been equipped with a tester again
somebody would have known. Has the boat been correct no fire, had the dock
been correct again no fire. SO who gets to pay for the boat? The court will
decide but for now the insurance company is refusing to pay a dime and thats
the bottom line.

The adjuster also informed me that the policy will be changing to require
all boats they insure from this spring on to not only be surveyed, but
complete electrical inspections by the surveyor and common bonded systems
will not be insured until corrected. Things are changing and these things
are easy to correct by any do it yourself type.

The tester I use is similar to this one, commom and found at any radio
shack store (US)
the description is terrible and it does not tell you what all it tests for
on the page but it covers it all and tests ground fault breakers wondefully.
If you push the button and the GFI breaker doesnt trip then you have a
commond neutral/ground on your boat etc etc etc.

Anyway i've written most of the old testiment it seems here but if it saves
one boat or one life or one bad experience it was time well spent.

Cheers
Claude
V1460
 
Dec 16, 2002
37
Claude,
Thanks for the great job explaining the AC grounding issue. Also being an electronic tech I've always had problems explaining the problem to all the 'experts' at the marina. There were a few old salts at our old marina who would take no stock at all in that 'nonsense'. We've since moved to a slightly more expensive marina (with deeper water) where the folks are a bit more reasonable!! lol
I too carry a three prong tester all the time but does that RS model you referenced have some extra GFI testing functions? There seem to be more than just the three LED indicators.
As far as salt vs 'fresh' water goes. Some people are a bit confused because the 'chemical' H2O does not normally conduct unless it has some impurity in it. But ALL water has enough impurity in it to conduct even the best tap water at home. The only way to test this theory is to have lab quality distilled H2O and test it's conductivity. Then drop just a few 'grains' of salt into it and see how rapidly it changes. (BTW... fish do more than just swim in 'fresh' water!!! lol)
Again 'kudos' for the clear explaination!!!

John Devany
Southern Comfort Too
Houston, TX
 
Jun 8, 2005
30
Visiting Dusseldorf Boot yday I spotted a Berserk copy (the book) at
Hanse Nautic's stand.
They may be contacted via their site www.hansenautic.de
Good Luck

Rob Kloosterman
Albin Vega 3329 Vrijheid
Naarden/The Netherlands
 
Apr 28, 2000
691
I hauled out last summer and replaced my eight-year-old zinc because it was somwhat pitted, though not noticeably smaller than the new one. Up until this year I have been using an extension cord and power strip/surge protector to run AC lights and appliances on Lealea at the dock. But I have now installed a new AC/DC panel and second battery bank with a shore power connection and internal charging system with AC outlets to run computers, lights, etc. while tied up. I had the installation done professionally by a reputable marine electrician but I think I'll get in the water this weekend with a mask and check the zinc. (Water temp here is about 70f)

Better safe than sorry.

Chuck Rose
SV Lealea, V1860
Honolulu

"Steve Birch" steve@... wrote:
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Hi All

Can anyone give me the measurements for the Vega Stormsail. Many thanks
to all in anticipation.

Just been fittinga new stainless fuel tanbk in the port locker, had a
great day glassing the shaped support bearers so the tank sits safely
and secure. Looking good and thanks to Stewart (Vega "Buffa") for his
instruction with fibreglass. Steve Birch (Technical)
 
Aug 3, 2005
66
Hi Steve and All,

Do you have a furling headsail? I was just wondering how you raise the
storm sail? Is it on a separate storm stay? I was just checking my mast
and the fitting for the storm stay is coming off the mast and I was
wondering what everyone else does. In particular, if you have a storm stay,
where does is attach at the deck and mast? I have roller furling for the
headsail so the normal hank-on arrangement for the storm sail won't work
without some extra help.

Cheers,
Tom
 
Oct 31, 2019
163
This is an interesting question and I for one would love to hear how anyone else gets around the problem of hoisting a storm-jib whilst carrying a roller reefed headsail/foil on the forestay.

Our system on Spring Fever is like everything else 'basic' though we have on one occassion been forced to use it in anger and it did work: -

The storm sail with sheets attached is permanently hanked onto a 7mm rigging wire which came off a friends 34' Sadler. In time of need, the lower end of this detachable forestay is shackled onto the forward deck cleak (this is a steel one with a big backing plate - not the standard timber jobby) whilst the upper end along with a wire strop from the top eye of the storm-jib clips onto a shackle which we've fitted onto the tail end of the main halyard. We drop the mainsail and winch it's halyard 'in reverse' to raise the storm jib, complete with it's forestay; cranking it as tightly as possible. we then have a rope with a 2 to 1 purchase block and jammer cleat fitted to the bottom eye of the stormsail, this loops around the deckcleat too, after which we haul in on this to tighten the sail.

As I say, it does work; though when we used it in anger we were unable to get the luff as tight as I would've liked (a 4 to 1 block might help?) and it does mean that we can't hoist it in tandem with the mainsail; though if it's windy enough for the storm-jib, I doubt we'll want that anyway.

As I said, I'd love to hear anyone elses solution.

Bob Carlisle, Spring Fever.

Tom Rutter tom.rutter@... wrote:
Hi Steve and All,

Do you have a furling headsail? I was just wondering how you raise the
storm sail? Is it on a separate storm stay? I was just checking my mast
and the fitting for the storm stay is coming off the mast and I was
wondering what everyone else does. In particular, if you have a storm stay,
where does is attach at the deck and mast? I have roller furling for the
headsail so the normal hank-on arrangement for the storm sail won't work
without some extra help.

Cheers,
Tom
 
Jan 28, 2001
694
Don't know what to say about getting around roller furling. I think I rember
seeing some ads for a storm jib that had a sleeve on the luff that fastened
around the furled jib. I don't remember who made them. When we had the storm
jib made for Lyric our sailmaker said the area was 1/3 of the working jib.
For our Mark I that worked out to 50 square feet. As far as Tom's comment
about the fitting for the storm jib coming of the mast I believe that is
probably the fitting for the topping lift for the spinnaker pole. Pop rivet
it back on, but don't use it for the storm jib. Walt
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Hi Tom

Found some measurements for you from Adam Tait who is sailing the med
and make shis own sails:I = 30' 8"
J = 10' 2"
P = 25' 11"
E = 10' 10"

Storm Jib...

Luff = 14'
Foot = 9' 2"
Leech = 10' 3"

Storm Trysail...

Luff = 10' 6"
Foot = 9' 8"
Leech = 16'

Cheers

Steve Birch (Technical)
 
Oct 2, 2005
86
The manufacturer of the stormsail that goes over the furling headsail is called the Gale
Sail, made by ATN. The cheapest US supplier I've found, unless you have a wholesale
account somewhere, is Rigging Only (www.riggingonly.com) They come in different sizes,
one 30 sq. ft. and one 60 sq. ft. and one larger one as well. After consulting with Rigging
Only and with North Sails, who made our mainsail we decided to buy a 60 sq. ft. model for
our Vega, Whisper. It cost around $250 as I recall. F.Y.I, our main has three reefs, the
smallest of which is 50 sq. ft. which should balance the boat nicely.

Hope that helps,

Hans Ericsson--Whisper