You Can Make A Difference.....
- Thread starter Maine Sail
- Start date
There Needs To Be Balance
In my opinion, lack of a GFI, the presence of gate valves, a single pole AC breaker should not be on the inspection report if they are otherwise in apparent good shape and serviceable. Just like I shouldn't have to fit air bags in my '74, ABS in my '94, traction control in my '01 or blind spot avoidance in my '06.
My objections are not the standards, but their application absent other deficiency within a marine survey. That's just like calling out items not to code on a home inspection when the code has changed but doesn't apply to existing structures. If the rig is in poor shape, if the core is rotted, if the tiller has too much play, if the hoses are cracked, if the lifelines are bad, if the anchor rode is chaffed, if the gate valve is stuck, if clamps are missing, if the wiring is flawed, if the belts are cracked, if the blower doesn't work, and if the instruments don't work, by all means note it. If I don't have an isolator, it doesn't belong there.
Once again, my objection is inspectors, surveyors et al calling this stuff out in what is supposed to be an inspection of habitability or seaworthiness. Throwing standards on paper is, to my mind, sometimes lazy, sometimes trying to impress, sometimes justifying the cost, sometimes CYA, but often a disservice to both the buyer and seller. It ought to be noted in a supplement which would have the same effect without placing the inspector and both insurance and finance underwriters in the position of surrogates for regulators.
Understand this is just one guy's opinion and take on the process. I do wish the two surveyors associations would consider this issue and maybe I'll direct something to them. I'm not trying to 'win' in this, just voicing a view.
In my opinion, lack of a GFI, the presence of gate valves, a single pole AC breaker should not be on the inspection report if they are otherwise in apparent good shape and serviceable. Just like I shouldn't have to fit air bags in my '74, ABS in my '94, traction control in my '01 or blind spot avoidance in my '06.
My objections are not the standards, but their application absent other deficiency within a marine survey. That's just like calling out items not to code on a home inspection when the code has changed but doesn't apply to existing structures. If the rig is in poor shape, if the core is rotted, if the tiller has too much play, if the hoses are cracked, if the lifelines are bad, if the anchor rode is chaffed, if the gate valve is stuck, if clamps are missing, if the wiring is flawed, if the belts are cracked, if the blower doesn't work, and if the instruments don't work, by all means note it. If I don't have an isolator, it doesn't belong there.
Once again, my objection is inspectors, surveyors et al calling this stuff out in what is supposed to be an inspection of habitability or seaworthiness. Throwing standards on paper is, to my mind, sometimes lazy, sometimes trying to impress, sometimes justifying the cost, sometimes CYA, but often a disservice to both the buyer and seller. It ought to be noted in a supplement which would have the same effect without placing the inspector and both insurance and finance underwriters in the position of surrogates for regulators.
Understand this is just one guy's opinion and take on the process. I do wish the two surveyors associations would consider this issue and maybe I'll direct something to them. I'm not trying to 'win' in this, just voicing a view.
How about this one? It popped up on a search.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/g1-2-quot-thermostatic-mixing-valve-gravity/138139452.html
I keep thinking about a thermostatic mixer just because I keep getting burned. Can't seem to remember to pull the handle down towards cold farther after running the engine versus where it seems to be set after having been on shore power.
http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/g1-2-quot-thermostatic-mixing-valve-gravity/138139452.html
I keep thinking about a thermostatic mixer just because I keep getting burned. Can't seem to remember to pull the handle down towards cold farther after running the engine versus where it seems to be set after having been on shore power.
For what it's worth, my 2006 Hunter 33 came with the mixing valve from the factory. If it wasn't a standard then, good on Hunter for installing it.
Hmm, let me take this thread in a slightly different direction.
My boat is a '95 Catalina. I'm VERY thorough about maintenance. That said is there a source -- short of finding and reading through the ABYC standards -- to determine upgrades in safety standards since my boat was built?
My boat is a '95 Catalina. I'm VERY thorough about maintenance. That said is there a source -- short of finding and reading through the ABYC standards -- to determine upgrades in safety standards since my boat was built?
Better idea?
I think a better idea would be a thermostat in the coolant line to prevent the engine from heating the water so hot.
I replaced my Rariran water heater last year with a new one because the sacrificial anode hadn't been replaced in 15years, and the tank rusted out. The new tank's instructions said to put a valve between the input and output of the heat exchanger to limit water temp. I didn't, because the old one didn't have it and I thought they were the same. Problem was, when running the engine, the water got so hot it tripped the thermal circuit breaker. Back on shore power, I had to remove settee cushions, a panel, and the water heater's panel to reset the breaker.
So I added the valve Raritan requested, but it doesn't really make sense to me. What it's doing is slowing the rate that the water is being heated, not how hot it can get. A thermostat in the line would allow the water to heat quickly, like while I'm recharging the refrigerator, but limit how hot the water got.
I think a better idea would be a thermostat in the coolant line to prevent the engine from heating the water so hot.
I replaced my Rariran water heater last year with a new one because the sacrificial anode hadn't been replaced in 15years, and the tank rusted out. The new tank's instructions said to put a valve between the input and output of the heat exchanger to limit water temp. I didn't, because the old one didn't have it and I thought they were the same. Problem was, when running the engine, the water got so hot it tripped the thermal circuit breaker. Back on shore power, I had to remove settee cushions, a panel, and the water heater's panel to reset the breaker.
So I added the valve Raritan requested, but it doesn't really make sense to me. What it's doing is slowing the rate that the water is being heated, not how hot it can get. A thermostat in the line would allow the water to heat quickly, like while I'm recharging the refrigerator, but limit how hot the water got.
When heating the water with shore power the thermostat will keep it to whatever the setting is, 140 in your case.
When heating with the engine loop it can reach 180 and the mixing valve prevents this. The mixing valve is on the tank output.
When heating with the engine loop it can reach 180 and the mixing valve prevents this. The mixing valve is on the tank output.
Because it is electric and is easy to adjust and limit by simply switching ON & OFF the electric element. By turning the electric aquastat up to 140 and blending the output down to 120F with a thermostatic mixing valve you can create more usable hot water capacity from a small tank. Run the water heater temp to engine temp and you'll get even more usable hot water, if you have a thermostatic mixing valve installed.
In order to do this on engine fired hot water heaters, with a "thermostat" gets very complicated. It uses 12V DC power, lacks reliability, and the water heaters are simply not designed for it because they lack the ability to properly install a second aquastat..
In a home heating system, with an "indirect fired" hot water heater, which is pretty much the same thing as a marine water heater but without eh electric element, there is an aquastat well in the tank.
This aquastat tells the boilers circulator to start circulating heated boiler water through the coil. Many installers of indirect fired hot water heaters run the aquastat temp as high as possible then mix it down with a thermostatic mixing valve on the tanks output. This yields more usable hot water by blending the hot with cold at the outlet. Instead of 40 gallons of 120F hot water you run it to 140F, 150F, 160F etc. then mix that with 55F street/well water and get more usable hot water capacity. It is pretty standard practice in both residential and commercial applications. The mixing valves are no different.
On a boat you simply can't tell your engine to stop or start circulating water to the water heater by means of an aquastat, like you can with a boiler. You also lack the "well" or tapping to insert an aquastat into in the water heater in order to control and sense temp.
Could this be done? Sure, anything could be done, but it would require some pretty fancy plumbing, more components, more money and a custom modified water heater. It woudl also result in less reliability for more money...... You would also get less effective hot water from the small tank....
Also any interruption of the flow of the water heater circuit on the engine can result in an overheat of some engines because this is a bypass circuit on some engines. This would need to be considered in the plumbing which means bypass loops and zone valve type devices, which are not very reliable to begin with, even on land..
This is why the industry, world wide, has settled on thermostatic mixing valves to control the temp of engine fired marine water heaters.. Thermostatic mixing valves have been standard equipment in Europe for years. They also allow you to get more usable capacity out of a small tank by blending tank output water with cold domestic water and "mixing it" for a lower net output temp..
Thermostatic mixing is extremely reliable and is mandated in the US for such things as shower valves to maintain a steady hot water temp. This is not new technology and has been used on in plumbing systems to control water temps since the early 1900's...... The US marine industry was about 40 years behind our land based plumbing standards, now we are caught up...
TCV
Does a TCV alve like the ones that came with the Force 10 style of water heater achieve the same as far as safety from getting burned, I assume so but the hook up looks a little different.
Does a TCV alve like the ones that came with the Force 10 style of water heater achieve the same as far as safety from getting burned, I assume so but the hook up looks a little different.
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A temperature compensation valve tries to do the same thing as a thermostatic mixing valve, limit domestic water temps, only does it on the coolant side of the circuit. I have not found them to be as reliable as a thermostatic mixing valve but it should provide for safe temps if plumbed correctly..