You Can Make A Difference.....

[Maine Sail]

For at least the last 5 years I have been pushing the ABYC to include in H-23 the requirement for hot water heaters, that can be heated off an engine, to have a means of controlling maximum hot water temp at the faucet, as we do on land. This would be in the form of a thermostatic mixing or tempering valve at the hot water heater that mixes incoming cold with outgoing hot water to deliver a "safe" domestic water temp...

Currently there is no requirement to limit potable water temp. When using the electric side it automatically controls and limits the temp but when running the engine the hot water heater will simply get nearly as hot as the engine coolant. This is DANGEROUS!!!

If you run the engine long enough the domestic water, in the water heater, will get as hot, or nearly as hot, as the engine itself. With some new engines they run as high as 200-210F...!!

The hull piping committee met in early January and it looks as if my "calls for comment" were heard loud and clear. Now the final details just need to be worked out.

This makes boating a lot safer, especially for young kids who can reach a faucet from a settee or in a head compartment..... My own nephew was badly scalded and my daughter was scalded last fall on a boat I delivered. She and my wife met me at the dock and she got her hands dirty. She went in the head to wash her hands and the screams of bloody murder were heard throughout the entire marina..... She actually blistered her fingers..... A big Cummins running at approx 200-210F!!

Hopefully by this time next year builders will no longer be able to ship boats in this unsafe manner....

It only took five years, but the ABYC, it seems, is doing the right thing. If you keep after something you believe in, and don't give up, you can make a difference!!!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Congratulations. Glad we could help, and thanks for bringing this to our attention so that we could. Keep up the great work.

Stu

 

[PGIJon]

A determination to succeed is the only way to succeed that I know anything about.
--William Feather

Congratulations!

-Jon

 

[woodster]

For at least the last 5 years I have been pushing the ABYC to include in H-23 the requirement for hot water heaters, that can be heated off an engine, to have a means of controlling maximum hot water temp at the faucet, as we do on land. This would be in the form of a thermostatic mixing or tempering valve at the hot water heater that mixes incoming cold with outgoing hot water to deliver a "safe" domestic water temp...

Currently there is no requirement to limit potable water temp. When using the electric side it automatically controls and limits the temp but when running the engine the hot water heater will simply get nearly as hot as the engine coolant. This is DANGEROUS!!!


If you run the engine long enough the domestic water, in the water heater, will get as hot, or nearly as hot, as the engine itself. With some new engines they run as high as 200-210F...!!

I just went over the minutes from the hull piping committee meeting from early January and it looks as if my "calls for comment" were heard loud and clear. Now the final details just need to be worked out.

This makes boating a lot safer, especially for young kids who can reach a faucet from a settee or in a head compartment..... My own nephew was badly scalded and my daughter was scalded last fall on a boat I delivered. She and my wife met me at the dock and she got her hands dirty. She went in the head to wash her hands and the screams of bloody murder were heard throughout the entire marina..... She actually blistered her fingers..... A big Cummins running at approx 200-210F!!

Hopefully by this time next year builders will no longer be able to ship boats in this unsafe manner....

It only took five years, but the ABYC, it seems, is doing the right thing. If you keep after something you believe in, and don't give up, you can make a difference!!!

would that include older boats that don't have this when discovered on surveys as well ....i have one on my new hot water heater (isotherm) and think that they are a good safety feature.....

regards

woody

 

[Maine Sail]

would that include older boats that don't have this when discovered on surveys as well ....i have one on my new hot water heater (isotherm) and think that they are a good safety feature.....

regards

woody

No. Just boats built to ABYC standards. That said a surveyor could choose to note it on a survey... This is a wise idea to add to any boat...

 

[Ted]

You can make a difference

I feel terrible when people, especially children get injured unexpectedly using commonplace items. I fully understand the concern but on a boat, the ability to store large volumes of tempered water is not practical. To me, it would make more sense to adjust the tap water temperature at the faucet rather than at the source? That would give a boat owner the ability to carry a small amount of very hot water and temper it with cold water at the outlet therefore yielding a larger overall quantity of warm water. I see no advantage in storing 30 gallons of warm water when 10 gallons of hot water and a mixing valve will accomplish the same safety benefits. Just my 2 cents.

Please don't push for seat belts.

 

[woodster]

cents.

Please don't push for seat belts.

i personally like the jack line idea with a teather when single handing moving out of the cockpit on the deck...and mabey in the cockpit too...

regards

woody

 

[kloudie1]

Ted, that is what the tempering valve does. It lets the water heater tank stay at a very high temperature but automatically mixes in a little cold into the hot exiting the tank so that nobody gets scalded. It can be set to whatever temperature you like the hot to be but typically less than 120F. The tank can stay at 180 or so.
Good Job, Maine.

 

[Maine Sail]

I feel terrible when people, especially children get injured unexpectedly using commonplace items. I fully understand the concern but on a boat, the ability to store large volumes of tempered water is not practical. To me, it would make more sense to adjust the tap water temperature at the faucet rather than at the source? That would give a boat owner the ability to carry a small amount of very hot water and temper it with cold water at the outlet therefore yielding a larger overall quantity of warm water. I see no advantage in storing 30 gallons of warm water when 10 gallons of hot water and a mixing valve will accomplish the same safety benefits. Just my 2 cents.

Please don't push for seat belts.

We are not storing any more water just requiring that the 4-10 gallons that is stored at 200F is tempered before hitting a faucet. We can't count on faucets because kids are, well kids, and many boats don't ship with a mixing tap, just hot and cold handles....

We do not allow this on-land and the Europeans have been ahead of us for years on this front. Most of the European water heaters you buy for boats come standard with a tempering valve. US heaters do not...

 

[smokey73]

Maine, Great idea - I hadn't even thought about this. I assume the tempering valve can be backfitted to existing hot water heaters. Is the a particular source/brand or kind for marine applications that would be better than others. I know you don't normally endorse by brand but for us it would be helpful.

Smokey

 

[Ron20324]

http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=841

 

[weinie]

If the tank is merely warm rather than hot and you temper it with cool water, you will have a much colder shower. One would have to run the engine longer if one just wanted to warm up the water a bit for a quick shower after a sail.

ETA:
On further thought, the AC thermostat setting would have to be significantly higher if you had a tempering valve. If your engine heated the tank up to 200 degrees, you would need to need a thermostat setting of the same 200 degrees if you wanted consistent output at the shower head.

 

[Maine Sail]

If the tank is merely warm rather than hot and you temper it with cool water, you will have a much colder shower. One would have to run the engine longer if one just wanted to warm up the water a bit for a quick shower after a sail.

ETA:
On further thought, the AC thermostat setting would have to be significantly higher if you had a tempering valve. If your engine heated the tank up to 200 degrees, you would need to need a thermostat setting of the same 200 degrees if you wanted consistent output at the shower head.

The thermostatic valve will mix the water based on a max output temp not based on the input temp... Works the same on the electric side as it does on the engine side. Set it for 125 degree water and you get 125 degree water, unless the electric side were set for 120F then you get 120F......... If electric was set for 130F then you would get 125F water if the engine was running at 200F then you would still get 125F water...

These devices are not new, they have been used for many years on marine water heaters. I have been installing them on boats for a long while and they work perfectly and do exactly what they are designed to do.

They only "mix" if they need to....

 

[weinie]

The thermostatic valve will mix the water based on a max output temp not based on the input temp... Works the same on the electric side as it does on the engine side. Set it for 125 degree water and you get 125 degree water, unless the electric side were set for 120F then you get 120F......... If electric was set for 130F then you would get 125F water if the engine was running at 200F then you would still get 125F water...

These devices are not new, they have been used for many years on marine water heaters. I have been installing them on boats for a long while and they work perfectly and do exactly what they are designed to do.

They only "mix" if they need to....

ahhh. I didn't know the valves were "thermostatic". From the picture, it looked like the valve is just a "T" fitting with the knob adjusting a fixed amount of flow from the hot side.

 

[jimmcgee]

Maine, Any reason not to use one of these for added safety on board?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBit...0-D-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-24505/204498190

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-AM101C-US-1/202264710

 

[RonRelyea]

Thanks MaineSail

Maine ... thanks for looking out for us! Your suggestions for an add-on valve for an existing heater would be much appreciated!

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine, Any reason not to use one of these for added safety on board?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBit...0-D-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-24505/204498190

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-AM101C-US-1/202264710

Either of those would work but I would suggest an NPT versions. Most ship "sweat" so unless you want to bust out the blow torch, flux and solder go with NPT or PEX mount.......

Sparco/Honeywell
Watts
Caleffi
Moen
Conbraco
Taco
Cash Acme

And many others make them..

 

[Rick D]

Terrific Idea & Follow Through, BUT

...I have a big problem with Surveyors adding newly-minted ABYC standards to inspections of craft built before them. FWIW, I have exactly the same issue with home inspectors.

For just one example, I have had to change out perfectly good hose because of labeling standards introduced after the boat was built. The new buyer's insurer will require it and there is no use in debating it with the underwriter. The deal has been poisoned; it's just a question of whether it's fatal.

Quite frankly, the items should be treated as an addendum to the report and NOT part of it, in my opinion. It would still be a trail for protection for the surveyor, but would not so often result in unnecessary expenditures while allowing the buyer and seller to negotiate a satisfactory accommodation. As long as they are contained in the report itself, they will be treated by the underwriter as mandates regardless of how presented.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Rick, well put. New standards applied to older facilities doesn't work in the building industry. Not sure why they should be applied in the boating world.

I do agree that the mixing valve is a wonderful idea, and if I had a little kid or ever had plans to have one aboard, I'd put one in in a heartbeat. But I won't, so I don't feel it's necessary and if a surveyor put it on the NEEDS rather than GOOD IDEA list if I sold my boat, I'd be peeved.

Good point.

PS I just replaced my water heater. I thought about it while I had it all apart, but decided not to.

 

[Maine Sail]

...I have a big problem with Surveyors adding newly-minted ABYC standards to inspections of craft built before them. FWIW, I have exactly the same issue with home inspectors.

Newly minted or not makes no differnce to the safety of the vessel which the insurers want to know about. I honestly doubt any surveyor would flag a water heater without a tempering valve as a "needed" item but they flag all sorts of things on a regular basis that were not required in the 50's 60's or even 70's....

Should a boat built with a Paloma-Pac still be okay to pass survey after they killed a bunch of people? Should a lack of GFCI's not be noted on a survey? Lack of over current protection? Should single pole AC breakers not be noted? Non compliant fuel lines?

If I was insuring a boat I would want to know about those things regardless of the age because the payout is the same whether someone is injured on a 1959 vessel or a 2014 vessel........

For just one example, I have had to change out perfectly good hose because of labeling standards introduced after the boat was built. The new buyer's insurer will require it and there is no use in debating it with the underwriter. The deal has been poisoned; it's just a question of whether it's fatal.

You may want to talk to my buddy Tim, who is a surveyor, about the court case he is or was just recently involved in this past September.

He saw cracks in below waterline hoses that he felt were unsafe. He noted it on the survey as a "to do" item. Insurance company mandated they be changed. Owner lied, in an email, and said they had been. Long and short the boat sank in the slip at the marina due to a cracked hose that Tim had noted. Insurer denied hull coverage when it was discovered the hoses had not been replaced as the owner said they were. (apparently they covered the liability/salvage portion)

Owner, even when in the wrong, tried to go after both the insurer and Tim saying it was a different hose, but it was not. Tim had photos and very clear documentation, a slam dunk on what hoses he was talking about. Owner lost and had to pay for the loss of his "financed" vessel. Tim is now having to go after the owner for lawyers fees which came out of his pocket to defend himself and the owner is still, as far as I know, going after the insurer..

Quite frankly, the items should be treated as an addendum to the report and NOT part of it, in my opinion. It would still be a trail for protection for the surveyor, but would not so often result in unnecessary expenditures while allowing the buyer and seller to negotiate a satisfactory accommodation. As long as they are contained in the report itself, they will be treated by the underwriter as mandates regardless of how presented.

Perhaps this would be. I highly doubt this would be noted as a critical "to do" but for boat builders it means they will need to comply if they want to claim "Built to ABYC Standards"..