Yellow water overboard?

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Mike B

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Apr 15, 2007
1,013
Beneteau 43 Baltimore, MD
Re: Sounds Like We are Going to be Required to shower Before Jumping into the Water

Well for those who choose to discharge directly overboard there are three rules to keep in mind :)
1. Hang on tight, the vast majority of boater drowning victims are found with thier zippers down.
2. Stand closer to the rail, it's not as big as you think it is.
3. Keep your back to the wind, or it'll be your own shoes you're peeing on.
Guess all those years standing in the river drinking beer I was in violation of the law :)
 
May 31, 2004
858
Catalina 28 Branford
I feel I have to weigh in on Don's side here. I have practiced environmental law for about 20 years, both as an attorney with an environmental advocacy group, and as in house counsel for a railroad. My employers have both sued and been sued under the very provisions of the Clean Water Act (and their state equivalents) that are mentioned here. The bottom line is that no one is allowed to put anything into a water of the United States without a permit. As Peggy and Don's messages have pointed out, not all of the regional offices of EPA agree completely, but I put that down more to differences in philosophy as to how to enforce the statutes, not in their base interpretation.

To those of you who see local sewage plants as the real problem, not overboard discharge of marine toilets: I agree with you that the sewage plants have a greater overall impact on water quality, but should be careful what you wish for. The grand majority of treatment plant issues relate to the fact that (at least here in the northeast) are hooked up to what are known as "Combined Sewer Overflow" (CSO) systems. This means that the street sewers are hooke up to the sanitary sewers, and they all go to the treatment plant before discharge to the local water body. However, when it rains, the treatment plant capacity cannot handle the extra flow from the street sewers; this leads to the system automatically letting the street sewers dump into the water body without treatment. I think we all have stories of finding disgusting crap floating in the water or on the beaches after a storm; well, that's where it comes from. Not to mention the dog, bird and other animal wastes that get washed into the sewers during a storm that greatly affect water quality. Those of you out there who say we should address these issues before picking on us poor boaters should carefully consider the costs of "fixing" this problem. There is really only one way to fix the problem: increase treatment capacity at the sewage plants so they can handle the flow of the storm sewers during a rainstorm. This is enormously expensive. It has taken us over thirty years (since the passage of the original Clean Water Act) and billions in investments to get us this far, and will take similar time, resources and effort to take us those final steps. In the meantime, I don't think the existing no-discharge laws for boats are unreasonable. After all, I see too many knuckleheads on the water who don't know and don't care about basic safety laws, and I sincerely doubt that those types would have a problem discharging their toilets wherever it is most convenient for them. I am all for making it very difficult for that crew to ruin my afternoon.
 

Benny

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Sep 27, 2008
1,149
Hunter 320 Tampa, FL
Laws are subject to interpretations to be tested in a court of law. Has anyone heard of a case testing the provisions of CWA against an individual peeing into navigable waters. Until then is just opinions. It would seem to me that the mighty, well oiled machine of EPA regulators would not stand a chance against little sailor man just performing a natural necessity common to all of us.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,462
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
I would add one last post here - that there are two fundamental issues involved - the so-called "letter" of the law and it's equitable implementation.
The statute, and it's implementing regs, are clear that putting anything into the water is a violation.
What, if anything, an enforcement agency does about it is discretional and an entirely separate matter.
The statutes are written so as to allow enforcement agencies a realistic means of implementation - making a distinction among the myriad of ways in which a discharge can occur leads to unenforceable statutes and makes implementation impractical. Hence, the laws are written broadly so as to include all manners of discharge.

As I said before, it would be hard to imagine anyone enforcing Federal statutory authority and civil penalty upon anyone relieving himself off the back of a boat.
Probably the only way to assure a fine would be to "pee on the EPA or CG guy's shoes"...
 

Jehr

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Sep 27, 2008
10
Hunter 240 Ottawa
Yellow Water Overboard

Lots of discussion! Thanks.

I am on a smaller boat but it is not uncommon for us to go out for 3-4 days. It is possible to put in a permanent pumpout, but there are no convenient pumpout locations. I was thinking of installing a urinal (just kidding..... well, sort of). Along the lines of an airhead, you could use a diverter toilet (permanently installed) with a wagg bag. The diverter could drain direct through the hull, no tank. Of course, the toilet would need to be above water line with maybe a checkvalve and a manual shut off. Probably not legal, but would seem reasonable....! This would get around the "store and pour" as there is no store.

The portable fills up quick and is still difficult to empty..... Not to mention illegal in Ontario.
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
I have always had a problem with the supposed dichotomy that it was 'ok' to pee over the side but dumping a bucket or other container of urine over the side was illegal. This never really made much sense but has been put forth by many as legal 'fact'. Thanks to Don and HukilauMike I understand that the law does indeed forbid such activities.
Perhaps one reason that such a myth has persisted is that there are probably very few (if any) cases of persons being charged for breaking this law (or set of laws: CWA). A big problem with this law is the enforcement of it; as has been previously pointed out. It would seem that many of us have been breaking the law for so long that it is rarely (if ever) enforced. In this day and age of digital cameras one should think twice about using their transom as an alternate head especially in a crowded harbor. If your boat has a holding tank then it should be used as such. Think of the publicity nightmare for us boaters should one of us be caught on camera breaking this law!
Thanks for the in-depth discussion ladies and gentlemen. You learn something new every day.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Don't take offense Don....

If you worked for the government you had to have at least one frontal lobotomy. As a major in the Army and now a contractor I figure I've had 4. I vividly remember the first two. I'm assuming I got the others as most of my peers appear to get on upon promotion. After working for the DoD as a contractor I can state for a fact that they all get one upon hiring.

It's not your fault. That is just the way it is in our government. Heck, I can hardly remember when to pee let alone if it is illegal to do it there.
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,561
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
I Wonder if the EPA has Ever Seen the "Facities" in a C-130?

#1 is a funnel attached to a tub out the bottom of the aircraft
#2 is a bucket with a plastic bag

Gues we need to add a light so that it does not get used over water or wetlands or utill they are three miles out
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
So Rick...

Where are these mythical tubes and buckets on a C-130???
After spending something like 15 hours in one on several occasion the crew kept telling me and my team the "head" was full and I'd have to hold it! Like it was some holy sanctuary that dirty nasty airborne soldiers where not worthy of even viewing let alone using!!!!!!!

You ever jumped with a full bladder??
I bet not or you would have let us use the dang thing. They where probably only following EPA rules. FCOL!

Did I ever mention how the AF dropped us off 150 km from our for real combat LZ. After running out of diesel about 50 km from the objective we got to hump our 75+ lb rucksacks and weapons to it and still stay on our time line. My team was ready to kill the AF crew. I looked the pilot up after all was said and done and he told me he got us as close as he could.:Liar:

I believe that is why the Jody goes:
Team SGT has a pistol to the crew chiefs head.
If you try leavin here, your gona leave real dead.
GPS says we're on the spot
Then it's shake his hand, wave By By and say thanks a lot.

That never made sense to me before that little experience.

I'll give you an "alibi fire" as a fellow sailor but your peers certainly leave something to be desired.
 
Mar 12, 2008
557
Jeanneau 49 DS San Pedro, CA
Bill, now you know why I was in the Air Force. I figured early on that the government valued the planes more then it valued grunts. But then, I did most of my work on the C-141's!

Where are these mythical tubes and buckets on a C-130???
After spending something like 15 hours in one on several occasion the crew kept telling me and my team the "head" was full and I'd have to hold it! Like it was some holy sanctuary that dirty nasty airborne soldiers where not worthy of even viewing let alone using!!!!!!!

You ever jumped with a full bladder??
I bet not or you would have let us use the dang thing. They where probably only following EPA rules. FCOL!

Did I ever mention how the AF dropped us off 150 km from our for real combat LZ. After running out of diesel about 50 km from the objective we got to hump our 75+ lb rucksacks and weapons to it and still stay on our time line. My team was ready to kill the AF crew. I looked the pilot up after all was said and done and he told me he got us as close as he could.:Liar:

I believe that is why the Jody goes:
Team SGT has a pistol to the crew chiefs head.
If you try leavin here, your gona leave real dead.
GPS says we're on the spot
Then it's shake his hand, wave By By and say thanks a lot.

That never made sense to me before that little experience.

I'll give you an "alibi fire" as a fellow sailor but your peers certainly leave something to be desired.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Sounds Like We are Going to be Required to shower Before Jumping into the Water

I have read reports of wild bird populations in pre Columbian America that would seem to indicate that our current problem is not too much nutrient in the water rather it is too few filter feeders,i.e. oysters, clams, menhaden, alewives, herring etc. When you read of the historic guano mines on the islands and learn that the birds deposit only a small fraction of their waste on land then it is easy to understand why there once existed schools of filter feeder fish so abundant that they were processed for fertilizer and oil. I often wonder if the present domestic chicken population exceeds the wild water fowl population of the pre-columbian Chesapeake Bay.
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,561
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Re: So Rick...

I can speak of both as I was in the Cav as a 19D. The funnel is just behind the wheel well on the starboard side (if I remember right) The bucket was at the front of the cargo floor oposite the crew door. The crew cheif was not going to let you use it as he was the one who would have to clean it up. Guess you could have taken it with you when you jumped.

As for why they dropped you where they did I guess it is because it is harder to get a new airplane than it is to get more Army guys, or maybe they got the weather from the Navy and their DR plot was off.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,186
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Rick & Bill

Hands clapping, hands clapping. Great exchange and banter.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Pat and Mike were drifting in an open boat with no land in sight when they saw a bottle floating nearby. They retrieved it and pulled the cork. Of course the genie came out and offered them just one wish. Mike said," I wish this whole ocean was Guiness" and just that quickly it was and the genie vanished. Pat said, " Mike! Now look what you've done! Now we gotta pee in the boat."
 
Jun 5, 2004
209
- - Eugene, OR
Actually guys, I think Don's interpretation is correct. Peggy quoted from the CFRs definition of "sewage," as "human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes . . ." If you simply read it as two separate clauses in the same sentence, you find that "human body wastes" are sewage, as are the wastes from "other receptacles intended to receive or retain body wastes . . ." Consequently, urinating directly into the water is a discharge of sewage. Of course, other laws could be implicated. Here in Oregon, I could see it being chargeable as public urination under various municipal codes, as public exposure or as disorderly conduct (a "B" misdemeanor, good for 6 months of your time). Any way you call it, there are better ways to deal with urine on board.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
 
V

Vic Willman

Over the side

As I understand it, if you pee (or otherwise) over the side, that is considered to be "discharging," and is illegal. My reading of the law is that if you're already IN the water, you can eliminate while there, but not from the swim platform or otherwise.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,462
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Vic
Don't know what you read to draw that conclusion (re: "in the water") other than drawing the common sense conclusion of impracticality in enforcing such a prohibition.
Most statutes and their implementing regs give consideration to the ability of enforcing them. This is precisely why the relevant Federal statutes do not limit the location or method of release of sewage - all are prohibited REGARDLESS of source, method of conveyance or location of the source, in large part, to preclude circumventing it..
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
lets ask the USCG

has anyone ever just asked the USCG on their interpretation of the reg? This would seem to be the only relevant answer. Even if the EPA thinks differently they are not the enforcers out on the water.
 
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