I'm in the process of selling my 45' H sailboat. The boat was in the yard for minor repair work based on recent surveyor's findings. In the process of moving the boat the yard dropped it on it's keel and rudder. The rudder post is bent and the hull is cracked on both sides aft of the rudder post. The yard says they'll take care of the damage but the buyer now may back out of the sale. Plus I'm concerned about yet to be discovered damage as a result of this accident. I'm thinking of hiring an attorney especially if the deal falls thru. Any advice?
- Status
dropped boat
John, what terrible news. Perhaps the buyer would feel better if the yard would pay for another independent hull survey after they fixed the damage. I think something like that would only be fair to you and the buyer. If not then I'd sure go talk to a lawyer. Good luck!
John, what terrible news. Perhaps the buyer would feel better if the yard would pay for another independent hull survey after they fixed the damage. I think something like that would only be fair to you and the buyer. If not then I'd sure go talk to a lawyer. Good luck!
John, you're going to need that survey and
a lawyer! No matter what. Tough luck. How do they manage to drop a 45 yacht? Anacortes huh. I'll keep that in mind.
a lawyer! No matter what. Tough luck. How do they manage to drop a 45 yacht? Anacortes huh. I'll keep that in mind.
You do not need to pay a lawyer..at least not yet!
Sheesh, we really have become sue-happy society! The yard has already admitted liability and expressed a willingness to repair the boat....what more could a lawyer accomplish than that? What you need to do is: 1. get the buyer's surveyor involved again immediately...not only can he attest to the condition the boat was in before the yard dropped it, but all repairs should be done to HIS satisfaction if possible...because he has an obligation to represent the buyer's best interests. Whether the yard should pay him to do that or not is a debatable point...'cuz surveyors represent the best interests of the person who pays 'em. Which is why you should also: 2. Call your own insurance company...not only will they pay a surveyor to represent YOUR interests, but also for legal representation--IF it becomes necessary...that's one of the reasons you have insurance (Read your policy.) The buyer is certainly entitled to back out in these circumstances...but if the boat can be repaired to everyone's satisfaction and his comfort level, he may still be willing to buy the boat...just at a lower price, with the yard's insurance carrier making up the difference to you in addition to paying for every repair to both surveyors' and the buyer's satisfaction that the boat needed before AND after they dropped it. That would be a win-win for everyone...the buyer gets a bargain, you still get all your money...and no lawyers. If the buyer does back out, I'd insist that yard buy it from you for the price the buyer had agreed to, repair it and sell it themselves. For that, you MAY need a lawyer...but prob'ly not if you're a good negotiator. But take this one step at time...don't go rushing out to hire a lawyer, for Pete's sake!
Sheesh, we really have become sue-happy society! The yard has already admitted liability and expressed a willingness to repair the boat....what more could a lawyer accomplish than that? What you need to do is: 1. get the buyer's surveyor involved again immediately...not only can he attest to the condition the boat was in before the yard dropped it, but all repairs should be done to HIS satisfaction if possible...because he has an obligation to represent the buyer's best interests. Whether the yard should pay him to do that or not is a debatable point...'cuz surveyors represent the best interests of the person who pays 'em. Which is why you should also: 2. Call your own insurance company...not only will they pay a surveyor to represent YOUR interests, but also for legal representation--IF it becomes necessary...that's one of the reasons you have insurance (Read your policy.) The buyer is certainly entitled to back out in these circumstances...but if the boat can be repaired to everyone's satisfaction and his comfort level, he may still be willing to buy the boat...just at a lower price, with the yard's insurance carrier making up the difference to you in addition to paying for every repair to both surveyors' and the buyer's satisfaction that the boat needed before AND after they dropped it. That would be a win-win for everyone...the buyer gets a bargain, you still get all your money...and no lawyers. If the buyer does back out, I'd insist that yard buy it from you for the price the buyer had agreed to, repair it and sell it themselves. For that, you MAY need a lawyer...but prob'ly not if you're a good negotiator. But take this one step at time...don't go rushing out to hire a lawyer, for Pete's sake!
Peggie, you're right.
And I'm usually the guy telling people not to use lawyers. (well, lotsa times, anyway) John, I still want to know how they broke your boat,,,,
And I'm usually the guy telling people not to use lawyers. (well, lotsa times, anyway) John, I still want to know how they broke your boat,,,,
Sort of depends on whether the buyer
"had to" buy the boat before it was dropped. Like where there were offers and counter offers going back and forth and you got to the point where all contingencies were waived/met, such as "price is X and seller will make repairs on page 2 within Y days" and buyer had agreed to "satisfactory survey" with some conditions/repairs noted. A long-winded way of saying that if you had the power to make the buyer close on the deal by doing some repairs, then if the buyer now walks because condition of boat changed, consult a lawyer. Otherwise, Peggie makes good points and I would add a suggestion that to get the deal to close the buyer is going to want to hire or choose the repair people so work toward that goal. Assuming the sale might to through, you should request from the yard's insuror: 1. To pay for the cost of neccessary repairs as performed by crafts person selected by buyer. 2. Pay you the difference in sales price, as Peggie has pointed out buyer will demand a reduction. 3. Get a hold harmless from the insuror from all claims arising out of the boat being dropped as made by the buyer. the latter is so you don't have to worry about the buyer coming back in 6 months with repairs that did not hold or additional damage discovered. If I was the buyer I'd probably walk unless I was already in love this your boat. If I was smitten, I would demand the opportunity to revisit claim for addtional repairs several months after the initial repairs were made. Lawyers are around $200-225/hr in your locality.
"had to" buy the boat before it was dropped. Like where there were offers and counter offers going back and forth and you got to the point where all contingencies were waived/met, such as "price is X and seller will make repairs on page 2 within Y days" and buyer had agreed to "satisfactory survey" with some conditions/repairs noted. A long-winded way of saying that if you had the power to make the buyer close on the deal by doing some repairs, then if the buyer now walks because condition of boat changed, consult a lawyer. Otherwise, Peggie makes good points and I would add a suggestion that to get the deal to close the buyer is going to want to hire or choose the repair people so work toward that goal. Assuming the sale might to through, you should request from the yard's insuror: 1. To pay for the cost of neccessary repairs as performed by crafts person selected by buyer. 2. Pay you the difference in sales price, as Peggie has pointed out buyer will demand a reduction. 3. Get a hold harmless from the insuror from all claims arising out of the boat being dropped as made by the buyer. the latter is so you don't have to worry about the buyer coming back in 6 months with repairs that did not hold or additional damage discovered. If I was the buyer I'd probably walk unless I was already in love this your boat. If I was smitten, I would demand the opportunity to revisit claim for addtional repairs several months after the initial repairs were made. Lawyers are around $200-225/hr in your locality.
You do need a to get a good surveryor
preferrably someone that has done a lot of insurance claims and knows the structural aspects of hull design. If the yard's insurance company is going to send someone you want to make that the surveyor has the proper credentials. (SAMS, NAMS) I am really sorry what happened to your boat. If I can be of any help feel free to get a hold of me Good luck Charlie
preferrably someone that has done a lot of insurance claims and knows the structural aspects of hull design. If the yard's insurance company is going to send someone you want to make that the surveyor has the proper credentials. (SAMS, NAMS) I am really sorry what happened to your boat. If I can be of any help feel free to get a hold of me Good luck Charlie
Yard Sale
The yard should buy the boat from you since you had it SOLD until they dropped it! They can repair it and sell it on their own time and dime.
The yard should buy the boat from you since you had it SOLD until they dropped it! They can repair it and sell it on their own time and dime.
The Buyer
If I was the buyer, I'd be gone...unless the price was greatly greatly reduced. These type accidents always do damage you cannot see/find, or lead to future problems. How many times after a car accident do we say..."Great car, but it will never be the same." Boats are worse.
If I was the buyer, I'd be gone...unless the price was greatly greatly reduced. These type accidents always do damage you cannot see/find, or lead to future problems. How many times after a car accident do we say..."Great car, but it will never be the same." Boats are worse.
If they haven't aIready written you a check,
get a lawyer of your own. No question about it. Do not delay! Stop trying to be nice. I do not care what they have admitted or promised or suggested. Stories change and memories fade so square it all away asap. A boat yard which drops a 45 foot boat has some serious management problems. That is a clear symptom of something which should give you a clue what you can count on from their management. Their promises are worth about as much as their reputation. As to reputation, I have a friend who put his boat in storage there for the winter just a few years ago and they failed to properly chain the stands. After a few wind storms, the boat fell and he spent the better part of two years getting that all settled. He tried to be nice and then tried to negotiate. They made a lot of promises but the yard had a deductable in their insurance policy and they could not pay it so they stalled and stalled. They said that it was not really so badly damaged in the fall. They said they would fix it and took a long time getting around to it. They did a lousy job and tried to get him to sign off on it. They finally tried to blame it on my friend who was no where near there at the time. Any of that sound familiar to you? The whole episode cost him two years of sailing and now he can no longer sail. It may not be the same yard but it sounds like it to me. Besides that likely history, you can bet they have a lawyer and so will their insurance company. When big money is involved, lawyers are an unpleasant necessity. I would not wait an instant longer to get one. Find one who is a real bastard. His fees become part of your claim. You should also immediately file a claim with your insurance if you can and let the lawyers sort it out. I would find out who their company is and make sure it is not the same one as yours. The risks to you are just too much not to protect yourself. Do not even listen to any promises not in writing and do not assume things that are not. I am not saying that anyone involved is not honest but be very careful. You do not have to ultimately sue them but if you do not show them that you are serious, and protect yourself, you might loose a lot. It can also be a very draining and stressful process for you and the sooner you start, the sooner you will get it finished. They should just pay you the selling amount agreed upon plus the costs you incur protecting yourself. It is really simple. Figure out how much you are owed and demand that they pay it. That should happen immediately. They can then fix the boat and sell it themselves. Anything less than that is a stall. Delay costs you not them. You can always apologize after the check clears.
get a lawyer of your own. No question about it. Do not delay! Stop trying to be nice. I do not care what they have admitted or promised or suggested. Stories change and memories fade so square it all away asap. A boat yard which drops a 45 foot boat has some serious management problems. That is a clear symptom of something which should give you a clue what you can count on from their management. Their promises are worth about as much as their reputation. As to reputation, I have a friend who put his boat in storage there for the winter just a few years ago and they failed to properly chain the stands. After a few wind storms, the boat fell and he spent the better part of two years getting that all settled. He tried to be nice and then tried to negotiate. They made a lot of promises but the yard had a deductable in their insurance policy and they could not pay it so they stalled and stalled. They said that it was not really so badly damaged in the fall. They said they would fix it and took a long time getting around to it. They did a lousy job and tried to get him to sign off on it. They finally tried to blame it on my friend who was no where near there at the time. Any of that sound familiar to you? The whole episode cost him two years of sailing and now he can no longer sail. It may not be the same yard but it sounds like it to me. Besides that likely history, you can bet they have a lawyer and so will their insurance company. When big money is involved, lawyers are an unpleasant necessity. I would not wait an instant longer to get one. Find one who is a real bastard. His fees become part of your claim. You should also immediately file a claim with your insurance if you can and let the lawyers sort it out. I would find out who their company is and make sure it is not the same one as yours. The risks to you are just too much not to protect yourself. Do not even listen to any promises not in writing and do not assume things that are not. I am not saying that anyone involved is not honest but be very careful. You do not have to ultimately sue them but if you do not show them that you are serious, and protect yourself, you might loose a lot. It can also be a very draining and stressful process for you and the sooner you start, the sooner you will get it finished. They should just pay you the selling amount agreed upon plus the costs you incur protecting yourself. It is really simple. Figure out how much you are owed and demand that they pay it. That should happen immediately. They can then fix the boat and sell it themselves. Anything less than that is a stall. Delay costs you not them. You can always apologize after the check clears.
I would want to have a clear understanding of my rights, and how I might inadvertantly lose them, the liability of the yard and how it might evade same, and the situation regarding the buyer's rights and responsibilities. Considering the price of an hour of an attorney's time, I'd be inclined to engage one who has had experience with matters like this to review any paperwork and listen to the story. I'd call the county bar association and ask for some likely names.
I'd say that yard just bought a boat....
I'm no lawyer, but as a licensed contractor I do have a fairly decent knowledge of liability from the standpoint of the yard and having seen how some businesses handle their responsibilities when things go wrong, I'd be very leary of letting them do the repairs or anything else to the boat. The first thing I'd do is call my insurance agent and get him in the loop. Next, I'd make it very plain to the yard owners that there is only one way that we keep this out of court, and that would be for them to buy the boat at the price you had agreed to with the buyer. Anything less and I'll see you in court. If they try to drag their feet, make excuses, negotiate or play any other shenanigans, I'd hire the meanest little pit-bull of a lawyer I could find and take them to the wall. They blew it big time and now you get to see what kind of a company they really are. Either they will take full responsibility for their mistake and make good on it or they will try to weasel their way out in some fashion. At the first sign of weaseling, sic the pit bull on 'em!! Jeff
I'm no lawyer, but as a licensed contractor I do have a fairly decent knowledge of liability from the standpoint of the yard and having seen how some businesses handle their responsibilities when things go wrong, I'd be very leary of letting them do the repairs or anything else to the boat. The first thing I'd do is call my insurance agent and get him in the loop. Next, I'd make it very plain to the yard owners that there is only one way that we keep this out of court, and that would be for them to buy the boat at the price you had agreed to with the buyer. Anything less and I'll see you in court. If they try to drag their feet, make excuses, negotiate or play any other shenanigans, I'd hire the meanest little pit-bull of a lawyer I could find and take them to the wall. They blew it big time and now you get to see what kind of a company they really are. Either they will take full responsibility for their mistake and make good on it or they will try to weasel their way out in some fashion. At the first sign of weaseling, sic the pit bull on 'em!! Jeff
Lesser of two weavels *666
I deal with attorney's every day and have no respect for them or their profession. Having said that, don't forget that you are dealing with a boat yard "business" and their insurance "company". These people, in the end, will do whats best for the company they represent. Approach them with the deal they purchase the boat for the agreed upon sale price. If they don't agree, do the dirty deed and hire a good attorney.
I deal with attorney's every day and have no respect for them or their profession. Having said that, don't forget that you are dealing with a boat yard "business" and their insurance "company". These people, in the end, will do whats best for the company they represent. Approach them with the deal they purchase the boat for the agreed upon sale price. If they don't agree, do the dirty deed and hire a good attorney.
Listen to Augie's Advice!
The most important thing an attorney can do for you at this point in the process, is to help make sure that you don't make a misstep and jeopardize your rights. That should not be expensive. Ignore the slanderous comments about lawyers. They are wrong, and worse, they can mislead you into trying a DIY activity which your are simply not qualified to take on by yourself. To the authors of the various remarks disparaging lawyers, please refrain from vilifying us on this list. It is highly offensive. Yes... I am a lawyer and there are many of us who participate in these discussions. I take great pride in my chosen profession. I have spent 25 years trying to assist people in dealing with problems, avoiding problems and fixing them when possible. I am reasonably confident that I have done so in a manner that has cost me no loss of respect among those whom I have dealt with professionally. All attorneys obligate themselves to the highest ethical standards and to vigorous representation of their clients' interests. If you have a problem with lawyers...remember they are representing, and speaking for, their clients...you! When you disparage the profession in its entirety, in effect you vilify each of us individually. If you think that I am being overly sensitive...fair enough, but I suggest that you read the accusatory comments in this thread and substitute your own profession, ethnicity or religion for the word 'lawyers' and see if it fits any better on you. Yes we are a profession made up of individuals and, most certainly, the legal profession and the world would be better off if a few miscreants were run out of the profession. Please have the courtesy not to tar us all with the same broad brush. Thanks, and Fair Winds,
The most important thing an attorney can do for you at this point in the process, is to help make sure that you don't make a misstep and jeopardize your rights. That should not be expensive. Ignore the slanderous comments about lawyers. They are wrong, and worse, they can mislead you into trying a DIY activity which your are simply not qualified to take on by yourself. To the authors of the various remarks disparaging lawyers, please refrain from vilifying us on this list. It is highly offensive. Yes... I am a lawyer and there are many of us who participate in these discussions. I take great pride in my chosen profession. I have spent 25 years trying to assist people in dealing with problems, avoiding problems and fixing them when possible. I am reasonably confident that I have done so in a manner that has cost me no loss of respect among those whom I have dealt with professionally. All attorneys obligate themselves to the highest ethical standards and to vigorous representation of their clients' interests. If you have a problem with lawyers...remember they are representing, and speaking for, their clients...you! When you disparage the profession in its entirety, in effect you vilify each of us individually. If you think that I am being overly sensitive...fair enough, but I suggest that you read the accusatory comments in this thread and substitute your own profession, ethnicity or religion for the word 'lawyers' and see if it fits any better on you. Yes we are a profession made up of individuals and, most certainly, the legal profession and the world would be better off if a few miscreants were run out of the profession. Please have the courtesy not to tar us all with the same broad brush. Thanks, and Fair Winds,
Update
I want to thank all of you posters for your insights and advice. If nothing more you have confirmed many of my thoughts. At this point we have had a number of developments. I hired my own surveyor and the yard also hired their surveyor. The two got together and jointly surveyed the boat. I agree with the position that “you broke it, you bought it”. However, the joint survey uncovered a new wrinkle. They condemned the rudder. Not because of the damage done in the drop but because the 3/8” stainless steel stock has severe corrosion where the stock meets the rudder. This was never detected in the original survey. The cost of replacing the rudder falls to me and it also delays the re-launch. The buyer is still with me so I haven’t engaged an attorney although I have talked to one just in case. In a past life I unfortunately had to use an attorney on a number of different occasions and while it cost dearly it saved my business. So I’m prepared to hire one if I have to. Also, I contacted the insurance co (State Farm) and they almost acted like they didn’t know me. From their perspective this is an issue for the yard to resolve and they offered no assistance. Hopefully, the buyer will stay the course and we can resolve this in another week. Again, thanks for all your help. I’ll get back to you and let you know “the rest of the story”.
I want to thank all of you posters for your insights and advice. If nothing more you have confirmed many of my thoughts. At this point we have had a number of developments. I hired my own surveyor and the yard also hired their surveyor. The two got together and jointly surveyed the boat. I agree with the position that “you broke it, you bought it”. However, the joint survey uncovered a new wrinkle. They condemned the rudder. Not because of the damage done in the drop but because the 3/8” stainless steel stock has severe corrosion where the stock meets the rudder. This was never detected in the original survey. The cost of replacing the rudder falls to me and it also delays the re-launch. The buyer is still with me so I haven’t engaged an attorney although I have talked to one just in case. In a past life I unfortunately had to use an attorney on a number of different occasions and while it cost dearly it saved my business. So I’m prepared to hire one if I have to. Also, I contacted the insurance co (State Farm) and they almost acted like they didn’t know me. From their perspective this is an issue for the yard to resolve and they offered no assistance. Hopefully, the buyer will stay the course and we can resolve this in another week. Again, thanks for all your help. I’ll get back to you and let you know “the rest of the story”.
'The rudder post is bent'..... (original post).
If I got in an accident with my car and had to replace a fender, I'd hope they wouldn't discount my claim because it had a little corosion! I assume that it was 'operating' just fine before the drop. I'm curious whether they contend that it bent as a result of the corosion?
If I got in an accident with my car and had to replace a fender, I'd hope they wouldn't discount my claim because it had a little corosion! I assume that it was 'operating' just fine before the drop. I'm curious whether they contend that it bent as a result of the corosion?
Rudder Comment
Thanks for the update, John. Frankly, I'm not surprised that State Farm has offered no assistance. That costs them money. Rudder: The way I understand it from the update the yard feels they shouldn't have to pay anything on the rudder because it was corroded and would have to be replaced anyway? Or perhaps they're saying if the corrosion wasn't so bad it wouldn't have bent or broke? So, in other words, now you could be out the cost of a new rudder plus shipping and installation? Hmmmm. My non-legal comment is that sounds like B.S.! Using a car analogy if the fender on my 10 year old car got bent so bad it had to be totaled it would have to be replaced even though it was 10 years old and there normally wouldn't be any depreciation for age. Hull: What I'm really curious/concerned about is the damage to the hull - "the cracks on both sides". Since the cracks were in the neighborhood or aft of the rudder post perhaps they feel that is a fixable problem.??? You know, one argument I'd make is even though there was corrosion identified on the rudder stock the fact that the hull got so cracked may be some proof that the rudder stock was sufficiently strong enough to withstand the loads - depending on how the load was. If the loading on the rudder was totally vertical then this wouldn't be a very good argument; however, if there was some side load (the more the better) then it may be possible to make a case. I'm frankly not surprised that corrosion was found at the rudder/rudder stock interface, in fact, it's more likely than not to be expected. I wonder if the rudder designer has any safety factor allowance for some corrosion? Recommendation: Don't plan on having the buyer continue to stick around. The longer this drags on the greater the chance is they can get cold feet or even find another boat. Comment/Question: If the deal is queered by this accident I wonder if the yard would be liable for the lost commission to the broker?
Thanks for the update, John. Frankly, I'm not surprised that State Farm has offered no assistance. That costs them money. Rudder: The way I understand it from the update the yard feels they shouldn't have to pay anything on the rudder because it was corroded and would have to be replaced anyway? Or perhaps they're saying if the corrosion wasn't so bad it wouldn't have bent or broke? So, in other words, now you could be out the cost of a new rudder plus shipping and installation? Hmmmm. My non-legal comment is that sounds like B.S.! Using a car analogy if the fender on my 10 year old car got bent so bad it had to be totaled it would have to be replaced even though it was 10 years old and there normally wouldn't be any depreciation for age. Hull: What I'm really curious/concerned about is the damage to the hull - "the cracks on both sides". Since the cracks were in the neighborhood or aft of the rudder post perhaps they feel that is a fixable problem.??? You know, one argument I'd make is even though there was corrosion identified on the rudder stock the fact that the hull got so cracked may be some proof that the rudder stock was sufficiently strong enough to withstand the loads - depending on how the load was. If the loading on the rudder was totally vertical then this wouldn't be a very good argument; however, if there was some side load (the more the better) then it may be possible to make a case. I'm frankly not surprised that corrosion was found at the rudder/rudder stock interface, in fact, it's more likely than not to be expected. I wonder if the rudder designer has any safety factor allowance for some corrosion? Recommendation: Don't plan on having the buyer continue to stick around. The longer this drags on the greater the chance is they can get cold feet or even find another boat. Comment/Question: If the deal is queered by this accident I wonder if the yard would be liable for the lost commission to the broker?
Tap Dancing
John: I'm with John Nantz on this one, MAJOR B/S!! Show me any older boat that doesn't have some corrosion on the mechanicals someplace!! The question I have is was that rudder working properly before the morons dropped the boat? Sounds like the yard is dancing around the issue. You had better hope that they don't find any blisters or the next thing they'll be saying is that the hull wouldn't have cracked if there hadn't been any blisters, and it was all your fault anyway, because if you hadn't hired them to pull your boat out, they woundn't have dropped it in the first place! They will be billing you for scuffing up their yard where the boat hit before too long. Just had another thought. If the shaft on the rudder was corroded that bad, why did it bend and not break off? A consult with a lawyer is sounding better to me.
John: I'm with John Nantz on this one, MAJOR B/S!! Show me any older boat that doesn't have some corrosion on the mechanicals someplace!! The question I have is was that rudder working properly before the morons dropped the boat? Sounds like the yard is dancing around the issue. You had better hope that they don't find any blisters or the next thing they'll be saying is that the hull wouldn't have cracked if there hadn't been any blisters, and it was all your fault anyway, because if you hadn't hired them to pull your boat out, they woundn't have dropped it in the first place! They will be billing you for scuffing up their yard where the boat hit before too long. Just had another thought. If the shaft on the rudder was corroded that bad, why did it bend and not break off? A consult with a lawyer is sounding better to me.
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