I have been requesting and received quotes for a new set of sail on my H37C. Main and staysail dimensions are pretty staight forward, but what about our Yankee. I ask each loft for a slighly larger, high clew Yankee and most of them indicated that they had supplied a similar Yankee to H37C owners in the past. I feel that a slightly larger Yankee combined with the staysail would better balance the boat and reduce weather helm in 10+ knot winds. Questions: What yankee size do you use ? Can anyone share their experience with a slighly larger Yankee ? Richard H37C Rhapsodie
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Happy medium?
You will get responses promoting the idea of making it a sloop. Buy a '150' will be the answer. I wanted to have a little better downwind and light air sail so went larger but kept it a yankee. It slides through the slot without help in any breeze over 3 knots. I posted the dimensions recently on HOW but cannot find the post now. It included a picture where you can see that my yankee comes back to the mast. The Related Link is an old post but still accurate I think.
You will get responses promoting the idea of making it a sloop. Buy a '150' will be the answer. I wanted to have a little better downwind and light air sail so went larger but kept it a yankee. It slides through the slot without help in any breeze over 3 knots. I posted the dimensions recently on HOW but cannot find the post now. It included a picture where you can see that my yankee comes back to the mast. The Related Link is an old post but still accurate I think.
weather helm
Wish I could answer your question... but all I can do is add my own!
I've read that the 37C is known to have a bit too much weather helm... but I wonder if ours is more than normal? Was out in 15-20 kt. winds the other day and the weather helm was extreme (in my opinion). Don't know the rudder angle but the wheel was about 1/3 of a turn to leeward to keep it from rounding-up! Is this what others are experiencing on this boat? I have to think that with this much rudder it must be slowing down the boat. After awhile I furled about half the mainsail (it's on a roller furler behind the mast), which helped somewhat with the weather helm, but of course didn't do much for the speed. This does make me think that a somewhat larger yankee would be a good idea.
Wish I could answer your question... but all I can do is add my own!
I've read that the 37C is known to have a bit too much weather helm... but I wonder if ours is more than normal? Was out in 15-20 kt. winds the other day and the weather helm was extreme (in my opinion). Don't know the rudder angle but the wheel was about 1/3 of a turn to leeward to keep it from rounding-up! Is this what others are experiencing on this boat? I have to think that with this much rudder it must be slowing down the boat. After awhile I furled about half the mainsail (it's on a roller furler behind the mast), which helped somewhat with the weather helm, but of course didn't do much for the speed. This does make me think that a somewhat larger yankee would be a good idea.Tom, that is exactly my point
In similar conditions of 15+ knots, I end up reefing the main to get better balance with both the staysail and standard yankee. My main is excessively blown out (that is why I am looking for new sails) and I can't flatten it enough in heavy winds and depower the sail. But even reefed, I still feel that I have too much weather helm in these condition, thus looking at a slightly larger yankee. Richard
In similar conditions of 15+ knots, I end up reefing the main to get better balance with both the staysail and standard yankee. My main is excessively blown out (that is why I am looking for new sails) and I can't flatten it enough in heavy winds and depower the sail. But even reefed, I still feel that I have too much weather helm in these condition, thus looking at a slightly larger yankee. Richard
ok 2 more cents
I am told by a local sailmaker and by a local long time 37c owner the following. The boat will sail wonderfully with a 125% jib. The j is so large that any more jib give you too much even for moderate conditions. the 125 will make a 37c really perform well. Both of these guys race extensively and have won a bunch of trophys! One has been to europe about 4 times and dont the Trans AT, Bermuda and caribean race week to name a few, One was phrf boat of the year 2 times. so i think they know whats works. Both by the way have removed the staysail for room cleaner air flow and ease in tacking. both removed the runners, I think both increased the wire size and one at least put some upper inner shrouds in. Both are respected and know what they are doing.I dont know what size mine is, its a bit to be when it blows and a bit to small when it doesnt so it must be close.
I am told by a local sailmaker and by a local long time 37c owner the following. The boat will sail wonderfully with a 125% jib. The j is so large that any more jib give you too much even for moderate conditions. the 125 will make a 37c really perform well. Both of these guys race extensively and have won a bunch of trophys! One has been to europe about 4 times and dont the Trans AT, Bermuda and caribean race week to name a few, One was phrf boat of the year 2 times. so i think they know whats works. Both by the way have removed the staysail for room cleaner air flow and ease in tacking. both removed the runners, I think both increased the wire size and one at least put some upper inner shrouds in. Both are respected and know what they are doing.I dont know what size mine is, its a bit to be when it blows and a bit to small when it doesnt so it must be close.
Weather helm on H37C.
If I am reading Tom's post correctly it sounds like this problem is withOUT the staysail. It is true that the relatively small(260 sq. ft) yankee needs help. You should not have to reef in 20 knots, fly the staysail and see how the balance changes. Ladylove would be balanced in 20 knots, even with the larger yankee. Here is a repeat of the old vs. new: 45' x 17' x 34'7”, 261sqft, LP=11.6' 45' x 18' x 36'3", 312sqft, LP=13.9’ That is only my experience and I am a novice by most standards, just five summers with a cutter.
If I am reading Tom's post correctly it sounds like this problem is withOUT the staysail. It is true that the relatively small(260 sq. ft) yankee needs help. You should not have to reef in 20 knots, fly the staysail and see how the balance changes. Ladylove would be balanced in 20 knots, even with the larger yankee. Here is a repeat of the old vs. new: 45' x 17' x 34'7”, 261sqft, LP=11.6' 45' x 18' x 36'3", 312sqft, LP=13.9’ That is only my experience and I am a novice by most standards, just five summers with a cutter.
Reducing weather helm
Buying a larger jib to reduce weather helm may not always be the easiest route. Larger sails (wether jibs or mains)tend to produce more heel for a given set of conditions and more heel translates into more weather helm for most hull shapes. Also, genoas or yankees well above 100% carry more of their sail area behind the center of lateral resistance (CLR) and could perhaps start contributing to weather helm that way. Therefore, it may be useful to briefly review the other measures that can be taken to reduce weather helm, even though there have been countless threads on the subject over the years. (1) DEPOWERING THE MAIN by moving the draft forward (mast bend & luff tension), making it flatter, letting the top third twist off ( allowing the boom to rise), changing the angle of attack (letting the traveler out or pinching) or reefing down (caution: sometimes a first reef has more belly than a full main). (2) MAST RAKE & BALLAST Rake the mast forward (not possible with some rig types)and make sure that the stern is not too heavy thereby causing the vessel to squat. Move ballast (dead or living) out of the stern and towards the windward side, whenever possible. (3) Since POWERING UP THE JIB can be a two-edged sword (as discussed in the first paragraph) one should try to power up without increasing heel while keeping the jib's center of effort as far forward and as low as possible (in this regard, the effect of lengthening the bowsprit by a few inches is sometimes worth a try). IMHO, the vast majority of excessive weather helm complaints among cruising vessels are caused by old, blown-out mains that cannot be properly flattened, thereby causing too much heel and too little drive (remember: at lower boat speeds the rudder powers down and larger rudder angles are needed to achieve the same steering effect). The second most common problem among cruisers is squatting caused by too much weight in the stern (notice the davits, dinghies, outboards, solar panels, wind generators plus a zillion other items hanging of the sterns of typical cruising vessels). Daysailers tend to be less heavily loaded with "stuff" but maybe hampered by lots of heavy passengers gravitating towards the lee side of the cockpit - rather than sitting near the beam on the windward rail - of many daysailers). Have fun Flying Dutchman
Buying a larger jib to reduce weather helm may not always be the easiest route. Larger sails (wether jibs or mains)tend to produce more heel for a given set of conditions and more heel translates into more weather helm for most hull shapes. Also, genoas or yankees well above 100% carry more of their sail area behind the center of lateral resistance (CLR) and could perhaps start contributing to weather helm that way. Therefore, it may be useful to briefly review the other measures that can be taken to reduce weather helm, even though there have been countless threads on the subject over the years. (1) DEPOWERING THE MAIN by moving the draft forward (mast bend & luff tension), making it flatter, letting the top third twist off ( allowing the boom to rise), changing the angle of attack (letting the traveler out or pinching) or reefing down (caution: sometimes a first reef has more belly than a full main). (2) MAST RAKE & BALLAST Rake the mast forward (not possible with some rig types)and make sure that the stern is not too heavy thereby causing the vessel to squat. Move ballast (dead or living) out of the stern and towards the windward side, whenever possible. (3) Since POWERING UP THE JIB can be a two-edged sword (as discussed in the first paragraph) one should try to power up without increasing heel while keeping the jib's center of effort as far forward and as low as possible (in this regard, the effect of lengthening the bowsprit by a few inches is sometimes worth a try). IMHO, the vast majority of excessive weather helm complaints among cruising vessels are caused by old, blown-out mains that cannot be properly flattened, thereby causing too much heel and too little drive (remember: at lower boat speeds the rudder powers down and larger rudder angles are needed to achieve the same steering effect). The second most common problem among cruisers is squatting caused by too much weight in the stern (notice the davits, dinghies, outboards, solar panels, wind generators plus a zillion other items hanging of the sterns of typical cruising vessels). Daysailers tend to be less heavily loaded with "stuff" but maybe hampered by lots of heavy passengers gravitating towards the lee side of the cockpit - rather than sitting near the beam on the windward rail - of many daysailers). Have fun Flying Dutchman
I'm with Tom
I think my main is original on my '85 and it seems blown out with a big belly. At 15 knts we reef, or if lazy, drop the staysail first to reduce heel and see if that reduces the weather helm enough. Close hauled with no reef and both headsails up (yankee high cut clew comes about to the mast I recollect) the helm is in the 2 to 3 o'clock position (starboard tack) when true wind at 15 knts. At 10 knots true wind, the boat is balanced and can point up at about 30 decrees apparent with boat speed in the 4-5 knot range. Main is not equiped w/cunningham. My first trim adjustment to reduce weather helm is to move the traveler to leward of midline and harden the sheet. Second trim adjustment is to move the trveler to windward of midline and ease the sheet to raise the boom and induce a little twist in the upper half of the sail. The third adjustment, short of reducing sail, is just to fall off to a beam reach and enjoy my coffee. The boat did come with a deck sweeper genoa, but I only used it once. At some point I think I will take the yankee and genoa to a sailmaker to see if the genoa can be recut to raise the clew. Scott
I think my main is original on my '85 and it seems blown out with a big belly. At 15 knts we reef, or if lazy, drop the staysail first to reduce heel and see if that reduces the weather helm enough. Close hauled with no reef and both headsails up (yankee high cut clew comes about to the mast I recollect) the helm is in the 2 to 3 o'clock position (starboard tack) when true wind at 15 knts. At 10 knots true wind, the boat is balanced and can point up at about 30 decrees apparent with boat speed in the 4-5 knot range. Main is not equiped w/cunningham. My first trim adjustment to reduce weather helm is to move the traveler to leward of midline and harden the sheet. Second trim adjustment is to move the trveler to windward of midline and ease the sheet to raise the boom and induce a little twist in the upper half of the sail. The third adjustment, short of reducing sail, is just to fall off to a beam reach and enjoy my coffee. The boat did come with a deck sweeper genoa, but I only used it once. At some point I think I will take the yankee and genoa to a sailmaker to see if the genoa can be recut to raise the clew. Scott
Replace a blown out main
Because almost none of the tuning tricks described in the other posts can really overcome a permanent belly in the sail. You'll be glad you did - a new main will mean less heel, more power, and less weather helm. David Lady Lillie
Because almost none of the tuning tricks described in the other posts can really overcome a permanent belly in the sail. You'll be glad you did - a new main will mean less heel, more power, and less weather helm. David Lady Lillie
Can't flatten the main.
As ridiculous as this sounds, I can't flatten my main because the topping lift is not adjustable and is much too short. It is obviously set for boom clearance of the bimini top (which I rarely use) and the main sheet cannot be tightened nearly enough to substantially flatten the main. This is causing all sorts of problems like extreme weather helm in certain conditions. This is my first season with the boat and I am going to make some corrections over the winter while the boat is in storage. Has anyone else dealt with this problem? If so, how did you deal with it. By the way, I really love Euphoria and her cutter rig. Other than the short season, Lake Michigan provides some of the best sailing in the world.
As ridiculous as this sounds, I can't flatten my main because the topping lift is not adjustable and is much too short. It is obviously set for boom clearance of the bimini top (which I rarely use) and the main sheet cannot be tightened nearly enough to substantially flatten the main. This is causing all sorts of problems like extreme weather helm in certain conditions. This is my first season with the boat and I am going to make some corrections over the winter while the boat is in storage. Has anyone else dealt with this problem? If so, how did you deal with it. By the way, I really love Euphoria and her cutter rig. Other than the short season, Lake Michigan provides some of the best sailing in the world.
Some options for Craig.
My H37C had a small set of blocks, 4:1, at the boom end of the topping lift. This was adequate for raising the boom in port and loosening the topping lift while sailing. But it provided no adjustment while sailing. When downwind you could not reach it and that is when you have all that slack, even with a tight vang. I wanted a spare halyard so I added one to the other rear sheave. Then I attached the topping lift to the new halyard. The boom end is fixed directly, I removed the little 4:1 system. Now I have complete control of the topping lift. With enough $$$ I would replace my rope vang with a solid vang and eliminate the topping lift. I could use the spare halyard to secure the boom when necessary.
My H37C had a small set of blocks, 4:1, at the boom end of the topping lift. This was adequate for raising the boom in port and loosening the topping lift while sailing. But it provided no adjustment while sailing. When downwind you could not reach it and that is when you have all that slack, even with a tight vang. I wanted a spare halyard so I added one to the other rear sheave. Then I attached the topping lift to the new halyard. The boom end is fixed directly, I removed the little 4:1 system. Now I have complete control of the topping lift. With enough $$$ I would replace my rope vang with a solid vang and eliminate the topping lift. I could use the spare halyard to secure the boom when necessary.
The power of the main...
...good title for a book, huh? I highly recommend going with a fully battened main and using a cunningham (even a makeshift one with just line and half hitches) for when it blows. That will will keep the luff of the main flat, which as mentioned earlier, is the primary component in weather helm. After that we can argue all day long about the ad and disadvantages of a cutter...personally I prefer a cutter rig whether it is a sloop, ketch, or yawl. What could be better in 30 knots or more than a small hanked on self tacking sail close to amidships???
...good title for a book, huh? I highly recommend going with a fully battened main and using a cunningham (even a makeshift one with just line and half hitches) for when it blows. That will will keep the luff of the main flat, which as mentioned earlier, is the primary component in weather helm. After that we can argue all day long about the ad and disadvantages of a cutter...personally I prefer a cutter rig whether it is a sloop, ketch, or yawl. What could be better in 30 knots or more than a small hanked on self tacking sail close to amidships???
If getting a new main
has everyone gone to full battens, or partial full battens (like the top two) and what have other done about the roach (the aspect of the leech) and what about fabic, all for inshore cruising use. Scott
has everyone gone to full battens, or partial full battens (like the top two) and what have other done about the roach (the aspect of the leech) and what about fabic, all for inshore cruising use. Scott
Four partials.
My almost new North mainsail has four partial battens. Actually the top could be considered full I guess. It slides into a batcar. The H37C main is relatively small. And with a topping lift there is not much roach. I am far from expert on the subject but don't think full battens would make much difference. North did not suggest it anyway.
My almost new North mainsail has four partial battens. Actually the top could be considered full I guess. It slides into a batcar. The H37C main is relatively small. And with a topping lift there is not much roach. I am far from expert on the subject but don't think full battens would make much difference. North did not suggest it anyway.
full battens
Now Ed S we Eds shouldnt disagree in public! I just change mains and put on a 5 batten main with two full battens high. Increased the roach and wow am i pleased witht he results. It has worked out great.
Now Ed S we Eds shouldnt disagree in public! I just change mains and put on a 5 batten main with two full battens high. Increased the roach and wow am i pleased witht he results. It has worked out great.
To the Edwards
Ed S. what is a batcar, Ed A. do you have measurements or can you somehow quanitfy the increase in roach? Scott
Ed S. what is a batcar, Ed A. do you have measurements or can you somehow quanitfy the increase in roach? Scott
i will try and get some measurements.
we added a good bit as you drop maybe 6 or so inches. but im not really sure. will try to look it up.
we added a good bit as you drop maybe 6 or so inches. but im not really sure. will try to look it up.
Batten car.
The Related Link is the mainsail that I have. Strange but the "batcar" is not mentioned, not even under "Extras". Maybe because it only looks like a batten car and really is not. Real batcars are usually part of a roller track system. Instead of a slug in a track you have an external track with a "car" wrapped around it. The car has wheels with ball or roller bearings. The idea is that these huge mains on their "bent" masts can be raised without a 40hp diesel winch. There is a car wherever you would have a slide. Where there is a full-batten the end actually slides into the back of the black nylon piece attached to the car. Well my top batten slides into one of these. But there is no car, just a normal slide. Here is a picture: http://www.ronstan.dk/english/Text/Batten/Series150/bct-522r50.htm Ed A., I already admitted to not being an expert. But maybe your main was like my original, old and baggy. So the new one seems soooo much better. There are, of course, other advantages to full-battens. Like maybe the sail would stay in the lazyjacks?
The Related Link is the mainsail that I have. Strange but the "batcar" is not mentioned, not even under "Extras". Maybe because it only looks like a batten car and really is not. Real batcars are usually part of a roller track system. Instead of a slug in a track you have an external track with a "car" wrapped around it. The car has wheels with ball or roller bearings. The idea is that these huge mains on their "bent" masts can be raised without a 40hp diesel winch. There is a car wherever you would have a slide. Where there is a full-batten the end actually slides into the back of the black nylon piece attached to the car. Well my top batten slides into one of these. But there is no car, just a normal slide. Here is a picture: http://www.ronstan.dk/english/Text/Batten/Series150/bct-522r50.htm Ed A., I already admitted to not being an expert. But maybe your main was like my original, old and baggy. So the new one seems soooo much better. There are, of course, other advantages to full-battens. Like maybe the sail would stay in the lazyjacks?
Flattening the main (Craig's problem)
Where is Don when we need him? ;o) [I am sure the answers have to be in his book]. Fortunately, Craig received some good answers already in this thread. However, I am a firm believer in a comprehensive approach to questions like this i.e. what should be done to luff AND foot AND leech to achieve maximum flattening? Fortunately for Craig, the topping lift is not a sail control per se and not even essential for sailing, just for controlling the boom. In case one has a hard boomvang to prevent the boom from falling down there is no real need to have a topping lift at all. Moreover, assuming that Craig wants to flatten the main to depower it and/or reduce heel, the leech does not need to be tensioned. On the contrary, a tensioned ("closed") leech prevents the airflow from being easily spilled. Even an overtight leech cord (creating essentially a partially tensioned leech segment) will tend to have that effect. To "open the leech" (reduce leech tension) the boom needs to be able to rise, thereby spilling the wind by allowing the top of the leech to twist off. The foot, however, needs to be tensioned ("stretched") as much as possible (using the outhaul) in order to maximally flatten and depower the sail. In many situations one can postpone putting a first reef in by first stretching the foot (note that the same is true for the jib!). In case you don't have a real winch to tighten the outhaul, try using a "spanish winch" technique. The luff will need to be tensioned to move the draft forward and flatten the sail. This will be most effective if one can increase mast bend at the same time since this will remove some of the draft originally built into the sail. To tension the luff it may be possible to simply crank on the main halyard. However, because of major friction in the typical mast track and/or halyard leads it is often more effective to increase luff tension by using the special Cunningham cringle built into many, if not most, mains'ls and pulling the cringle down with block and tackle. Success, Flying Dutchman
Where is Don when we need him? ;o) [I am sure the answers have to be in his book]. Fortunately, Craig received some good answers already in this thread. However, I am a firm believer in a comprehensive approach to questions like this i.e. what should be done to luff AND foot AND leech to achieve maximum flattening? Fortunately for Craig, the topping lift is not a sail control per se and not even essential for sailing, just for controlling the boom. In case one has a hard boomvang to prevent the boom from falling down there is no real need to have a topping lift at all. Moreover, assuming that Craig wants to flatten the main to depower it and/or reduce heel, the leech does not need to be tensioned. On the contrary, a tensioned ("closed") leech prevents the airflow from being easily spilled. Even an overtight leech cord (creating essentially a partially tensioned leech segment) will tend to have that effect. To "open the leech" (reduce leech tension) the boom needs to be able to rise, thereby spilling the wind by allowing the top of the leech to twist off. The foot, however, needs to be tensioned ("stretched") as much as possible (using the outhaul) in order to maximally flatten and depower the sail. In many situations one can postpone putting a first reef in by first stretching the foot (note that the same is true for the jib!). In case you don't have a real winch to tighten the outhaul, try using a "spanish winch" technique. The luff will need to be tensioned to move the draft forward and flatten the sail. This will be most effective if one can increase mast bend at the same time since this will remove some of the draft originally built into the sail. To tension the luff it may be possible to simply crank on the main halyard. However, because of major friction in the typical mast track and/or halyard leads it is often more effective to increase luff tension by using the special Cunningham cringle built into many, if not most, mains'ls and pulling the cringle down with block and tackle. Success, Flying Dutchman
Nice, Henk
I've read a lot of posts on sail trim, but seldom have been able to understand as well as I did this contribution. Mac
I've read a lot of posts on sail trim, but seldom have been able to understand as well as I did this contribution. Mac
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