I have a problem. Beside the fact that I choose to throw large sums of my little pay check into the water as a hobby/lifestyle, I have been confronted of late by those representing organized sailing. My first thought was to call the police and complain, but I realized that they too belong to an organization and might find my complaining offensive. As it is I offend so many so often, I have spent the last few weeks visiting all of the local organized crime syndicates, er, I mean, yacht clubs. All have the standard history posted for newcomers and visitors to read. All have the requirements for membership and rules for proper conduct posted. And all have a resturant/bar at which to sit and spin tales of heroic adventures and races won. Pretty nice, huh? The problem is that with all of this splendor comes a price. There is an aire so palpable that I felt a need to shower as soon as I left each club. What's up with that? On a whim today I stopped by to see a friend that I knew would be at his club on my way home. There happened to be some kind of function there (party) and while the two of us were talking another member (another fella that I also knew) told my friend that his out of town guest, me, would have to pay a $10 fee if i expected to stay. All I was doing was filling a promise to say Hi. I didn't even ask to use the head. Okay, now the question, finally. How many of you "Belong"? Have any of you had experiences similar to mine?
- Status
Here in Key West...
...There are two very different 'Clubs'. One of them is the Key West Yacht Club, where the local rich folk store -er, moor their yachts and have dinner/drinks on occasion while hob-nobbing in their blue blazers. Then there's the Key West Sailing Club. KWSC is a member-run, member-supported, non-profit organization, with a handful of club boats and a few in-water slips out behind the clubhouse. They organize cruises, races, seminars on boat-related topics, and generally promote sailing as a worthwhile pastime. Lessons are available for a reasonable price, and there's almost always someone at the club who can take newbies sailing. Cruisers and daysailers are all welcome, and so are out-of-town guests (who are only charged money if they eat the food or drink the beer). The club dues are extremely reasonable ($80 a year for one person, or $120 for the whole family), and the slip fees are the cheapest in the lower Keys. There are no other hidden or 'per use' fees (except food/drinks). If you walk onto the grounds while wearing a blue blazer, you're likely to get keel-hauled by the club's Commodore. So, there are a few clubs out there that aren't "organized crime syndicates"... It's just a matter of finding the right one. I'd start by looking for the club without the word 'Yacht' in its title. Good luck! --Jon Bastien H25 'Adagio'
...There are two very different 'Clubs'. One of them is the Key West Yacht Club, where the local rich folk store -er, moor their yachts and have dinner/drinks on occasion while hob-nobbing in their blue blazers. Then there's the Key West Sailing Club. KWSC is a member-run, member-supported, non-profit organization, with a handful of club boats and a few in-water slips out behind the clubhouse. They organize cruises, races, seminars on boat-related topics, and generally promote sailing as a worthwhile pastime. Lessons are available for a reasonable price, and there's almost always someone at the club who can take newbies sailing. Cruisers and daysailers are all welcome, and so are out-of-town guests (who are only charged money if they eat the food or drink the beer). The club dues are extremely reasonable ($80 a year for one person, or $120 for the whole family), and the slip fees are the cheapest in the lower Keys. There are no other hidden or 'per use' fees (except food/drinks). If you walk onto the grounds while wearing a blue blazer, you're likely to get keel-hauled by the club's Commodore. So, there are a few clubs out there that aren't "organized crime syndicates"... It's just a matter of finding the right one. I'd start by looking for the club without the word 'Yacht' in its title. Good luck! --Jon Bastien H25 'Adagio'
There are yacht clubs...and there are yacht clubs
Most are fairly casual, friendly places...nothing like the one you dropped into (or maybe you just ran into a jackass member...every organization, on or off the water, has at least one). There's a lot to be said for belonging to a yacht club...a club provides a sense of "family," that just doesn't exist in a public marina. I chose to join mine after my husband died because I wanted to keep my boat in a place where where I belonged, where there were committees to join and ongoing activities to be a part of.. Plus, a yacht club provides a nice place to entertain guests...many have sailing and water safety classes for kids...and the fact that most require new members to be sponsored by at least one person who knows 'em pretty well, and that there is a behavior code, guarantees a certain level of comfort that can't exist in a public marina. And finally, unlike a public marina, it's the members who run a yacht club...the manager and other employees have to keep the membership happy or they're history. While all of the above is true for every YC, every club has its own personality--it's own "style"...you'll have more in common with the members at some than you will at others. So if you're considering joining a YC, don't hesitate to "shop" for the one where you'll be the most comfortable.
Most are fairly casual, friendly places...nothing like the one you dropped into (or maybe you just ran into a jackass member...every organization, on or off the water, has at least one). There's a lot to be said for belonging to a yacht club...a club provides a sense of "family," that just doesn't exist in a public marina. I chose to join mine after my husband died because I wanted to keep my boat in a place where where I belonged, where there were committees to join and ongoing activities to be a part of.. Plus, a yacht club provides a nice place to entertain guests...many have sailing and water safety classes for kids...and the fact that most require new members to be sponsored by at least one person who knows 'em pretty well, and that there is a behavior code, guarantees a certain level of comfort that can't exist in a public marina. And finally, unlike a public marina, it's the members who run a yacht club...the manager and other employees have to keep the membership happy or they're history. While all of the above is true for every YC, every club has its own personality--it's own "style"...you'll have more in common with the members at some than you will at others. So if you're considering joining a YC, don't hesitate to "shop" for the one where you'll be the most comfortable.
Kevin, What is the need to bond with others?
A persons comfort level and needs are satisfied by their actions in their daily life. If the club atmosphere is what you want, then you must join. You can fall in with the group, or.......drive that extra mile and go sailing. What others do is not ours to judge, but we can make choices that work better for us. Mine is to sail. With my wife, boat and a bit of wind, there is nothing more enjoyable for $10 or $1000. The choice is yours. Ray
A persons comfort level and needs are satisfied by their actions in their daily life. If the club atmosphere is what you want, then you must join. You can fall in with the group, or.......drive that extra mile and go sailing. What others do is not ours to judge, but we can make choices that work better for us. Mine is to sail. With my wife, boat and a bit of wind, there is nothing more enjoyable for $10 or $1000. The choice is yours. Ray
gave Y. C .up!!!!!
I did belong to a Yacht Club that I gave up. The club was more about socialiation than sailing. Most members liked to sit at the bar and spin yarns....Thats O K for them. I did my first sail with them to another club and on arrival found everyone already "in the bag"....and that was O K...What turned me against continuing to belong was the fact we ate dinner alone at a table in a room full of members that had no time outside their circle of already established friends.....and that too was O K...It just made me find the correct group that SAIL together and race and welcome new people in. I even wound up being the Captain and am now co-chairing the membership committee. One thing this club does do...IT welcomes and includes newer members and thats O K with me...
I did belong to a Yacht Club that I gave up. The club was more about socialiation than sailing. Most members liked to sit at the bar and spin yarns....Thats O K for them. I did my first sail with them to another club and on arrival found everyone already "in the bag"....and that was O K...What turned me against continuing to belong was the fact we ate dinner alone at a table in a room full of members that had no time outside their circle of already established friends.....and that too was O K...It just made me find the correct group that SAIL together and race and welcome new people in. I even wound up being the Captain and am now co-chairing the membership committee. One thing this club does do...IT welcomes and includes newer members and thats O K with me...
Hunter Sailing Associations
The underlying assumption in my response is that you are a Hunter Owner. There are a number of Hunter Sailing Associations (HSA's) around the country which promote sailing among their membership. Typically, their YC is the weekend raft up or cruise or on the net. A complete list of HSA's is in the Knotline, published by Hunter. If you are a Hunter Owner on the Chesapeake Bay, check out the following URLs: http://www.dc.net/fpitts/hsa/ and http://members.nbci.com/nshsa/NSTAR.html.
The underlying assumption in my response is that you are a Hunter Owner. There are a number of Hunter Sailing Associations (HSA's) around the country which promote sailing among their membership. Typically, their YC is the weekend raft up or cruise or on the net. A complete list of HSA's is in the Knotline, published by Hunter. If you are a Hunter Owner on the Chesapeake Bay, check out the following URLs: http://www.dc.net/fpitts/hsa/ and http://members.nbci.com/nshsa/NSTAR.html.
Oh Phil, I think we have a survey topic
There is definately a quorum here for this. Why do you belong to a YC. 1. Cheapest way to moor/store the boat? 2. It has prestige and I can impress my friends (while the YC empresses my credit card!) 3. Common goal of comraderie and sailing activities 4. Best bar and crab dip (that would be Annapolis) 5. Some other reason
There is definately a quorum here for this. Why do you belong to a YC. 1. Cheapest way to moor/store the boat? 2. It has prestige and I can impress my friends (while the YC empresses my credit card!) 3. Common goal of comraderie and sailing activities 4. Best bar and crab dip (that would be Annapolis) 5. Some other reason
volunteer clubs
My club is an all-volunteer organization to which it costs less than a dollar a day to belong. In addition to the racing and cruising programs we run, we sponsor junior sailing instructional programs that introduce hundreds of kids to sailing every year at very low cost. We co-host youth regattas with Stanford University where dozens of West Coast High Schools compete. We run monthly women's sailing clinics free of charge. We provide free meeting space for boating safety courses run by the Coast Guard Auxilary as well as for other boating organizations such as the Sea Scouts to hold their meetings. We maintain, at considerable expense, a courtesy dock where cruising yachts from around the world can stay free for a few days of rest and relaxation. Together with other local yacht clubs we host wheelchair regattas where the mobility impaired can enjoy a day on the bay in a boat. Oh, and every once and a while we gather to socialize and to spin a few boating yarns. Shame on us.
My club is an all-volunteer organization to which it costs less than a dollar a day to belong. In addition to the racing and cruising programs we run, we sponsor junior sailing instructional programs that introduce hundreds of kids to sailing every year at very low cost. We co-host youth regattas with Stanford University where dozens of West Coast High Schools compete. We run monthly women's sailing clinics free of charge. We provide free meeting space for boating safety courses run by the Coast Guard Auxilary as well as for other boating organizations such as the Sea Scouts to hold their meetings. We maintain, at considerable expense, a courtesy dock where cruising yachts from around the world can stay free for a few days of rest and relaxation. Together with other local yacht clubs we host wheelchair regattas where the mobility impaired can enjoy a day on the bay in a boat. Oh, and every once and a while we gather to socialize and to spin a few boating yarns. Shame on us.
Optimist Club Membership Drive
Dearest Kevin, Your introductory sentence is extremely accurate, you do have a problem. Unfortunately it's not with clubs and other organization that others find enjoyable to belong to, your problem is Y.O.U. Please contact anybody in the mental health field immediately. Your depressive attitude can be controlled with the proper medication. Most people in the Fast Food Industry can find the additional expenses in life financially difficult. While those of us in worthwhile employment find $10 to be a small tip. Don't give up hope looking for your type of club. Somewhere out there is a club that excepts foodstamps in lue of $'s.
Dearest Kevin, Your introductory sentence is extremely accurate, you do have a problem. Unfortunately it's not with clubs and other organization that others find enjoyable to belong to, your problem is Y.O.U. Please contact anybody in the mental health field immediately. Your depressive attitude can be controlled with the proper medication. Most people in the Fast Food Industry can find the additional expenses in life financially difficult. While those of us in worthwhile employment find $10 to be a small tip. Don't give up hope looking for your type of club. Somewhere out there is a club that excepts foodstamps in lue of $'s.
Columbia River All Catalina Association
No clubhouse, no docks, no snobs (well...). I would have to have a lobotomy before I joined a traditional yacht club but the sailing associations are a different story. Just a bunch of folks out sailing. Fun fun fun! LaDonna
No clubhouse, no docks, no snobs (well...). I would have to have a lobotomy before I joined a traditional yacht club but the sailing associations are a different story. Just a bunch of folks out sailing. Fun fun fun! LaDonna
Different Strokes for Different Folks
The responses so far clearly indicate that the term "yacht club" describes a wide range of activity, as well as dress codes that run the full gamut from beer-stained T-shirts to the aforementioned blue blazer. If you look long enough, you should be able to find a yacht club that suits your personal style. It takes all kinds to make a world. In the event that you don't find such a club, don't panic. There is nothing that a yacht club might provide that you can't find somewhere else. You may have to work at it a little harder, but it's not impossible. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
The responses so far clearly indicate that the term "yacht club" describes a wide range of activity, as well as dress codes that run the full gamut from beer-stained T-shirts to the aforementioned blue blazer. If you look long enough, you should be able to find a yacht club that suits your personal style. It takes all kinds to make a world. In the event that you don't find such a club, don't panic. There is nothing that a yacht club might provide that you can't find somewhere else. You may have to work at it a little harder, but it's not impossible. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
The name of our Club is....
The South Norwalk BOAT Club. The name says it all. We have about 300 slips, A newly renovated clubhouse, a great bar, and lunch is served everyday, and diner is served Friday, Saturday and Sunday. How much are the dues you ask? They are $150.00 per year. Dock space is less than $15.00 per foot. No snobs here, lots of volunteers to take care of the building, the docks and to haul and launch boats, we have our own Travel lift by the way. I have been to many a club on the East coast and have yet to come across a finer facility than ours. I am proud to be a member.
The South Norwalk BOAT Club. The name says it all. We have about 300 slips, A newly renovated clubhouse, a great bar, and lunch is served everyday, and diner is served Friday, Saturday and Sunday. How much are the dues you ask? They are $150.00 per year. Dock space is less than $15.00 per foot. No snobs here, lots of volunteers to take care of the building, the docks and to haul and launch boats, we have our own Travel lift by the way. I have been to many a club on the East coast and have yet to come across a finer facility than ours. I am proud to be a member.
Palpable air
If you want to shower after feeling the palpable air, you probably won't feel comfortable in a club. Clubs of any kind have a air established by the social class the members strive to represent...even if it's a club of low rider pick-up trucks. Yacht clubs offer many advantages including a commadrie and events, including racing that you usually can't get otherwise. I'm a member of a club because it is the nicest and safest place to keep my boat. Non-club marinas almost always have an element that is, to be PC, not as well kept, or neat. "Junkier" is another way to put it. Those kinds of things are usually not as tolerated in a club. Your're friends comment was either a joke or you may have overstayed your welcome.
If you want to shower after feeling the palpable air, you probably won't feel comfortable in a club. Clubs of any kind have a air established by the social class the members strive to represent...even if it's a club of low rider pick-up trucks. Yacht clubs offer many advantages including a commadrie and events, including racing that you usually can't get otherwise. I'm a member of a club because it is the nicest and safest place to keep my boat. Non-club marinas almost always have an element that is, to be PC, not as well kept, or neat. "Junkier" is another way to put it. Those kinds of things are usually not as tolerated in a club. Your're friends comment was either a joke or you may have overstayed your welcome.
Clyde, I hope your coments were in jest.
If they were then I find them tasteless at best. If not, then I would rate you the best among some of the other class structured jerks that will never get it. Not everyone can be so fortunate in life, by reasons not entirely in their control, as you. I hope you earned your position and wern't handed it. So much for my welcome on this site but I haven't been this mad since the early 70's. Ray
If they were then I find them tasteless at best. If not, then I would rate you the best among some of the other class structured jerks that will never get it. Not everyone can be so fortunate in life, by reasons not entirely in their control, as you. I hope you earned your position and wern't handed it. So much for my welcome on this site but I haven't been this mad since the early 70's. Ray
Thank You, Clyde. You Prove my Point...
Well,... I thought I'd open a can of worms with this, but what's not to love about a good argument between sailors. Thank you for your responses. Although I may not have found "the club" for me that day, I am glad to see that I have found a like-minded place where at least I have the option of voicing an opinion. Clyde, hum, I'd still throw you a line and give you a tow, should you require the services of one so meager in ability. But I don't think that I'd offer a cup of joe. Have a "good" day. Last thought... I called my buddy, to let him know about this article, and to apologize if I had over stayed my welcome. Before I could get a word out he was apologizing to me for the way his club had behaved. He knows that I'm club shopping and couldn't believe how rudely they treated a possible new member. Whew, medication, huh, Clyde. That's harsh, dude....
Well,... I thought I'd open a can of worms with this, but what's not to love about a good argument between sailors. Thank you for your responses. Although I may not have found "the club" for me that day, I am glad to see that I have found a like-minded place where at least I have the option of voicing an opinion. Clyde, hum, I'd still throw you a line and give you a tow, should you require the services of one so meager in ability. But I don't think that I'd offer a cup of joe. Have a "good" day. Last thought... I called my buddy, to let him know about this article, and to apologize if I had over stayed my welcome. Before I could get a word out he was apologizing to me for the way his club had behaved. He knows that I'm club shopping and couldn't believe how rudely they treated a possible new member. Whew, medication, huh, Clyde. That's harsh, dude....
Mine is just fine
I belong to WINSA (Whidbey Island Naval Sailing Association). Dues are $25.00 yearly and that mostly covers replacement of the racing markers. The members are enthusiastic toward new members. We meet at the marina in a clean conference room and the memebership has been a great source of information concerning maintenance, insurance, and honesty of local repair professionals. We sail weekly and owning a boat is not required. getting a ride on one is easy. They do a good job of promoting sailing.
I belong to WINSA (Whidbey Island Naval Sailing Association). Dues are $25.00 yearly and that mostly covers replacement of the racing markers. The members are enthusiastic toward new members. We meet at the marina in a clean conference room and the memebership has been a great source of information concerning maintenance, insurance, and honesty of local repair professionals. We sail weekly and owning a boat is not required. getting a ride on one is easy. They do a good job of promoting sailing.
You get what you pay for....
Our club: the Lorain Sailing & Yacht Club, charges $60/year to be a member. That gives you the right to attend meetings, use the "facilities" and enjoy the sailing "community" without being hit over the head with the "YACHT CLUB" thing like you describe. We're just guys & gals, just like you, who share a common bond - boating - and who want a place to meet. No restaurant, no bar, but - yes - a kitchen, a meeting room, and the facilities. You get what you pay for.
Our club: the Lorain Sailing & Yacht Club, charges $60/year to be a member. That gives you the right to attend meetings, use the "facilities" and enjoy the sailing "community" without being hit over the head with the "YACHT CLUB" thing like you describe. We're just guys & gals, just like you, who share a common bond - boating - and who want a place to meet. No restaurant, no bar, but - yes - a kitchen, a meeting room, and the facilities. You get what you pay for.
Extremes
I think we've seen the two extremes in this thread. On one hand, Kevin feels like yacht clubs are robber barons and a nets of snobs, and on the other, Clyde probably has problems with sunburn on the underside of his nose. The point is yacht clubs run the gamut from the small all volunteer clubs to the large full service club. All of them have something to offer for their members. My club is one of the later, though not as large as some of the other full service clubs in the area. All of the boat yard, dock, mark boat, and clubhouse maintenance is done by volunteers. I've worked on the docks with a surgeon, a CEO, and a constuction worker. Very seldom does the subject of "what you do" comes up. We have a great restaurant operation, open for lunch Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, dinner on the same nights, brunch on Sunday, Monday Night Football (in season), Monday Night movies after football season ends. Monday Night Movies/Football is all volunteer run. Of course, we have a full service bar. The Club also runs a Junior Sailing program fielding an Opti fleet, a Melges Splash fleet, a Laser fleet, and for high school sailing, a collegiate FJ fleet. Our JS program is listed in the Alameda County recreational guide and the Junior Sailing Foundation has provide funding for many kids who wanted to learn to sail but were unable to afford the program. For you racers, we run races for the local Yacht Racing Association, run the annual J-Fest race (75 boats, 5 races in 2 days, race committee of over 25 people on 2 committee boats, and 4 mark boats), the Coastal Cup race from San Francisco to Ventura/Santa Barbara, and many other Club sponsored races. BTW, most of the yacht clubs in SF Bay sponsor the Yacht Racing Association races with no compensation for race committee costs (mark boat fuel, committee boat fuel, etc.). All entry fees are paid to the YRA, and the clubs pay YRA dues for each racing member. YRA dues are not passed to the membership. Without yacht clubs, the racing scene would be very different (or non-existant). Our race committee is entirely volunteer. Yeah, we try to give 'em a box lunch. The Club has a pool which is great for families to come and spend the day at the club and it gives the "racing widows" a place to hang out while their SO is out racing. We have a 3 ton hoist to launch your Olson 30, Olson 25, Melges 24, etc. you are able to conveniently store in the boat yard. I could go on and on but Kevin, keep looking, there is a sailing org/club out there for you. Clyde, every yacht club so matter what size has a couple of guys like you. In SF Bay, we call guys like you blue coated gas bags. Gary, I hope it wasn't my club you quit. I've included a link to my club's website so you can get an idea of the activities our members enjoy. Yeah, I've been caught wearing a blue blazer but only when I have to and not often. I'm far more comfortable in a regatta tee shirt, shorts and deck shoes. No, I don't have a reserved parking spot. Rodney Kidd Commodore, Encinal Yacht Club Alameda, CA C-38 #297, Flying Bear
I think we've seen the two extremes in this thread. On one hand, Kevin feels like yacht clubs are robber barons and a nets of snobs, and on the other, Clyde probably has problems with sunburn on the underside of his nose. The point is yacht clubs run the gamut from the small all volunteer clubs to the large full service club. All of them have something to offer for their members. My club is one of the later, though not as large as some of the other full service clubs in the area. All of the boat yard, dock, mark boat, and clubhouse maintenance is done by volunteers. I've worked on the docks with a surgeon, a CEO, and a constuction worker. Very seldom does the subject of "what you do" comes up. We have a great restaurant operation, open for lunch Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, dinner on the same nights, brunch on Sunday, Monday Night Football (in season), Monday Night movies after football season ends. Monday Night Movies/Football is all volunteer run. Of course, we have a full service bar. The Club also runs a Junior Sailing program fielding an Opti fleet, a Melges Splash fleet, a Laser fleet, and for high school sailing, a collegiate FJ fleet. Our JS program is listed in the Alameda County recreational guide and the Junior Sailing Foundation has provide funding for many kids who wanted to learn to sail but were unable to afford the program. For you racers, we run races for the local Yacht Racing Association, run the annual J-Fest race (75 boats, 5 races in 2 days, race committee of over 25 people on 2 committee boats, and 4 mark boats), the Coastal Cup race from San Francisco to Ventura/Santa Barbara, and many other Club sponsored races. BTW, most of the yacht clubs in SF Bay sponsor the Yacht Racing Association races with no compensation for race committee costs (mark boat fuel, committee boat fuel, etc.). All entry fees are paid to the YRA, and the clubs pay YRA dues for each racing member. YRA dues are not passed to the membership. Without yacht clubs, the racing scene would be very different (or non-existant). Our race committee is entirely volunteer. Yeah, we try to give 'em a box lunch. The Club has a pool which is great for families to come and spend the day at the club and it gives the "racing widows" a place to hang out while their SO is out racing. We have a 3 ton hoist to launch your Olson 30, Olson 25, Melges 24, etc. you are able to conveniently store in the boat yard. I could go on and on but Kevin, keep looking, there is a sailing org/club out there for you. Clyde, every yacht club so matter what size has a couple of guys like you. In SF Bay, we call guys like you blue coated gas bags. Gary, I hope it wasn't my club you quit. I've included a link to my club's website so you can get an idea of the activities our members enjoy. Yeah, I've been caught wearing a blue blazer but only when I have to and not often. I'm far more comfortable in a regatta tee shirt, shorts and deck shoes. No, I don't have a reserved parking spot. Rodney Kidd Commodore, Encinal Yacht Club Alameda, CA C-38 #297, Flying Bear
I just joined a club
Kevin, I think I was in your position when I got my boat last fall. I was looking for a nice place to keep my boat, but did not want the snobbery of a "yacht club". What I did find though is perfect for what I am looking for. The Bristol Yacht Club is much like what others have been describing for their clubs, very volunteer oriented and has an excellent junior sailing program open to anybody. The people in the club are of all ages and children are welcomed and encouraged. I am finding the club very relaxed and friendly. Nothing to do with attitude or class. People come from all over with doctors and lawyers next to electricians and teachers. I will just add that I would not consider Clyde's comments to represent how most people on this board to feel and I was not going to raise to the bait to even discuss it. I am sorry that you were subjected to those comments and hope that it does not put you off on your search. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh 86 C-36 #560
Kevin, I think I was in your position when I got my boat last fall. I was looking for a nice place to keep my boat, but did not want the snobbery of a "yacht club". What I did find though is perfect for what I am looking for. The Bristol Yacht Club is much like what others have been describing for their clubs, very volunteer oriented and has an excellent junior sailing program open to anybody. The people in the club are of all ages and children are welcomed and encouraged. I am finding the club very relaxed and friendly. Nothing to do with attitude or class. People come from all over with doctors and lawyers next to electricians and teachers. I will just add that I would not consider Clyde's comments to represent how most people on this board to feel and I was not going to raise to the bait to even discuss it. I am sorry that you were subjected to those comments and hope that it does not put you off on your search. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh 86 C-36 #560
- Status