Xantrex Echo Charge w/1/2/both switch

Alan Johnson · Oct 2, 2012

Echo charging

Using the both switch defeats the reason for using an echo charger. As soon as either bank is charged, the regulator will stop charging both banks. It is the same as mixing new and old batteries. Use the echo as designed, send all charging to one bank and echo charge the second bank. I have been using this systen since 2006 and it is flawless. It takes charge of my two charging sourses, engine and solar.

onecoolair · Oct 2, 2012

drh1965 said:
I have a question about the Echo Charger that I'm hoping someone can help me with. If I wire up all my charge sources to the house bank and connect the Echo between the House and Start banks, what happens when the switch is set to both? This would basically make the house and start banks one large bank with both the input and output leads of the echo shorted together. What does the Echo think of that if there is a charging source active (i.e. like the Alternator)?

My echo is only connected to alt. and then to isolator and then to start reserve battery. Isolator has a#1 and #2 post. isolator#1 post is Reserve, isolator#2 post is always house.Even if all switches were to be cut off alt always sees a battery...
I have an extra battery cut off 1/2/both/off switch next to engine. #1 is reserve battery ....#2 goes to separate house banks 1/2/both/off switch.
Procedures are to Open engine cover inspect engine then turn switch from off to #2 house...Which then connects engine to main house bank switch which is either #1 or #2. Alternator sees the selected house bank only. Echo only gets juiced from alternator and then it decides how much start reserve battery needs. Alternator always sees house first for proper charge regulation.
By doing it this way I no longer have to leave starter connected to battery all the time. Plus by solving the issue of the defective yanmar wiring harness and key switch, I have been one happy camper!

mitiempo · Oct 2, 2012

drh1965 said:
If I wire up all my charge sources to the house bank and connect the Echo between the House and Start banks, what happens when the switch is set to both?

It would of course defeat the Echo Charge's function, but wouldn't do any damage.

There is no reason to EVER combine both banks with an Echo Charge. If one battery bank is down too far for an engine start switch to the other bank. Combining a charged bank with one that is very low can leave you with neither bank able to start the engine.

Maine Sail · Oct 3, 2012

drh1965 said:
I have a question about the Echo Charger that I'm hoping someone can help me with. If I wire up all my charge sources to the house bank and connect the Echo between the House and Start banks, what happens when the switch is set to both? This would basically make the house and start banks one large bank with both the input and output leads of the echo shorted together. What does the Echo think of that if there is a charging source active (i.e. like the Alternator)?

All that happens is you defeat the Echo when using ALL to charge. It won't harm the Echo. In some cases ALL can still be necessary because the Echo has a max of 15A output. Some boaters wire the Windlass to the start battery, I would not recommend that with an Echo, but they do.

In order for the Echo to work, as intended, it takes current from the HOUSE bank and FEEDS it to the start bank. It is important that the charge current, all of it, as in solar, wind, battery charger and alternator be fed to the house bank so the Echo can then feed the start/aux battery.

Maine Sail · Oct 3, 2012

onecoolair said:
My echo is only connected to alt. and then to isolator and then to start reserve battery. Isolator has a#1 and #2 post. isolator#1 post is Reserve, isolator#2 post is always house.Even if all switches were to be cut off alt always sees a battery...

Be careful counting on diode isolators to protect an alternator. I have seen and replaced numerous diode isolators, all brands, that have blown the diodes. Often I see both paths blown not just one, but one leg is more common.. Often high surge loads, windlass, inverter, thruster etc. can cause these isolator failures especially when the diodes are "flowing"... Also a low or weak start battery can cause the starting circuit to try and pull cranking current from the house bank and this too can pop the diode in the isolator.

They are not as "reliable" as people assume they are. This is but one of reason why we have moved away from them for use on boats. The most reliable method to protect alternator diodes is to simply run the alt direct to the bank.

Stu Jackson · Oct 3, 2012

drh, you might be interested in this: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade

It shows what you suggest, only starts with what you desire then "corrects" it, but I understand. I wouldn't get too hit up about the parasitic drain unless you do the math on ah consumed and your charging periods.

Maine Sail · Oct 3, 2012

drh1965 said:
Maine: I know you have done a lot of work with the Echo... I'd like to eliminate the 50mA drain when the Echo is not charging by placing it on the output side of my switch such that when the Switch is off, the Echo is powered off completely. This seems like it would be fine to me???

These devices claim "up to" 50mA but usually I see them under 30mA.. 30mA X 24 = 0.72Ah per day. Any solar that is properly sized will deal with this just fine.

The Echo should be hooked directly to the house bank. If you want to turn it off place a switch in the neg lead. This will disable the Echo.

drh1965 said:
Quick diagram (please excuse my grossly simplified, lousy, text artwork):

StartBat -> Switch1 -> EchoOut -> Starter

If "Echo out" means it is connected to the feed or input side of the Echo charger it won't work as intended. If Echo out means the output side you need to be sure the alt is not wired via the start battery.

drh1965 said:
HouseBat -> Switch2 -> EchoIn -> Panel < - Occasional Solar Trickle charge
^
|
---------- Alt, A/C Charger

I'm thinking I may need to wire my Solar to the HouseBat since the Echo might not like seeing the mAs from the Solar when the switch is in the off position?

Comments? Concerns?

Just wire every charge source, alt, solar, battery charger and the Echo Charger to the house bank and let it feed the start battery as it is intended to otherwise it won't work properly with all available charge sources. If you feel you must have a switch, wire it to the neg leg of the Echo and this will disable it.

onecoolair · Oct 3, 2012

Maine Sail said:
Be careful counting on diode isolators to protect an alternator. I have seen and replaced numerous diode isolators, all brands, that have blown the diodes. Often I see both paths blown not just one, but one leg is more common.. Often high surge loads, windlass, inverter, thruster etc. can cause these isolator failures especially when the diodes are "flowing"... Also a low or weak start battery can cause the starting circuit to try and pull cranking current from the house bank and this too can pop the diode in the isolator.

They are not as "reliable" as people assume they are. This is but one of reason why we have moved away from them for use on boats. The most reliable method to protect alternator diodes is to simply run the alt direct to the bank.

Maine Sail I hear you......But my Engine Alternator is still connected to main house bank by way of original but fixed problem yanmar harness factory setup. Alternator sees only the bank that the 1/2/both/off engine switch is set to. Extra wire from alternator goes to isolator common. Then echo is on #1 and #2 goes directly to house. Not totally depending on isolator as protection. Only has a what if. Say Main engine cut off switch was accidently turned off or if the #2 house connection on switch was to malfunction after starting and engine running. And that's it. If I connected directly to house then it would always be a draw off house. Which I did not want. The only thing I could see happening is if isolator did fail I should then see echo work when engine is not running which would tell me isolator as failed. Or the echo may stop work while engine is running. But I am still seeing alternator charging the house bank. What ever the case it would be easy to transfer echo to main house. Till isolator is replace.

Stu Jackson · Oct 3, 2012

The easier way to do it is what Maine Sail said: put a toggle switch in the negative line to turn it off and wire it directly to the banks.

Maine Sail · Oct 3, 2012

drh1965 said:
Interesting read. Thanks. I can see both sides of that argument. If you typically walk away from your boat with everything turned off (re. the switch and shore power), I think wiring the Echo on the downsteam side of the switch makes more sense. If you typically leave a charging source on when you walk away from your boat, it makes more sense to wire the Echo directly to the batteries.

My current configuration uses a relay style combiner. It has always worked well keeping both banks charged and I get 5 to 6 years out of all the batteries (alot considering the wicked heat down here in the Galveston/Houston area). However, those Gel batteries keep going up in price and I have to use Gels for both house and start. I'm trying to modify my configuration so that I can use a small Auto Start battery and either Gels or AGMs for the house (perhaps 6V next time around). I want to do this slowly though as the cost of upgrading everything would be substantial. My House Gel is now dead and my start Gel has another couple years to go. So, my plan is to move the Start Gel to the house, by a cheap auto start battery, and an Echo. That will save me $100 now. I know that isn't ideal because of the Gel charging parameters but the Echo has enough voltage drop that I don't think it will harm the cheapo start battery. When the other Gel dies, I'll replace it with an AGM (or 2 6V AGM Cart batteries).

With the new configuration using the Echo, when I walk away from my boat with the switch off and the shore power cable disconnected from the dock (99% case), the Echo will not slowly bleed my house battery.

In the rare case that I'm away a long time, I leave the switch in the on position and connect a solar maintainer to a CigLighter plug wired to the panel. This way, the house battery gets charged if the event that the Bilge pump runs a bunch for some reason...

If feeding a non-gel battery (auto starting battery) a gel battery charge voltage the last thing you want is any more voltage drop. Flooded batteries can and really should be charged at 14.4V+/- or 14.4-14.8V where as GEL's, most of them sold in the US, should not be charged at any more than 14.1V. This will lead to chronic undercharging of the flooded battery.

Ideally if you want to mix GEL and anything else you need a different sort of battery B2B management device, such as those made by Sterling Power. If not one bank will get either under or over charged. Probably best just to keep your combiner until you decide what you want to do long term..