Has anyone purchased a previously chartered sailboat for their own personal use? I'm concerned about high engine hours and damage/neglect caused by careless customers over the years. Then again, the charter company usually keeps the maintenance up. Any experiences? Trevor
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Brian Pickton
Owed to a Charter boat
RE: Buying a Charter Boat. Our Beneteau F456 was originally in a charter fleet for 3 years, then sold to the previous owner whom we purchased it from. The boat was badly neglected when we bought it. On the other hand the boat came extremely well equipped with electronics and air conditioning, all of which was operating when we bought the boat. The sails were o.k., the hull had numerous small blisters which did not trouble us. The engine showed neglect and was leaking oil from every orifice. All of the floors needed refinishing and one was suffering from rot due to condensation dripping from the air conditioning and had to be replaced. The hull was so dull it looked like it needed to be painted. All of these defects drove the price down from the original asking price by $35,000.00 U.S. The leaking engine was repaired by tightening up all of the engine bolts, particularly on the oil pan. Popular thinking says that Perkins 4-108 motors need to be rebuilt about every 10,000 hours. The cost when we looked into it would have been about $3500, not including the cost of removing and reinstalling the motor. Our engine hour meter was wired backwards and counting down when we bought the boat so we had no genuine idea how many hours the motor had on it. We still have not done a rebuild and the engine just keeps ticking, but we are meticulous about doing oil and filter changes. The dull hull was brought back to a bright finish by compounding and wax, no paint job was required. We did our own epoxy job on the hull and keel. The one faulty floor was replaced, the rest were sanded and refinished at home over the winter. The air conditioner was removed to increase storage space and replaced by fans. We did all of this work ourselves and feel we were well paid for it, since our then 7 year old 45 footer cost us less than $100,000.00. That was 7 years ago. We do need top side paint now! I'd buy another Beneteau in a heart beat, since apart from ordinary wear and tear the engine has held up remarkably well since we purchased it. The boat is a wonderful sailor: we revel in passing similarly sized Swans. We've sailed it from Vancouver to the Caribbean via the Panama canal over the last four years and have been very satisfied with it. That's been our experience. Being older and hopefully wiser now what I would do if looking to purchase a used boat is very carefully compare the cost of buying a used boat out of the charter business with the cost of a used privately held boat of the same age. For example The Moorings has a reputation for selling off their used boats in good condition and many purchasers I have spoken to have been very pleased with the condition of the boats they have bought, and what I've seen has impressed me as well. This is not true of boats coming out of all other fleets however, so you want to be careful with whom your dealing. Obviously a survey and sea trial is de riguer. On the other hand because the boats coming out of The Moorings fleet are often in such good condition they are commanding a premium price on the used market, and that's the pitfall. Because of the number of boats the Moorings controls it behooves them to support a high market price for the boats to keep their owners coming back. An individual owner on the other hand, with less at stake in terms of sustaining a market, may offer you a similarly equipped boat at a comparable or better price, of the same vintage, with much less wear on it than a charter boat. That is why it pays to very carefully moniter the private market and have patience until the model you want comes along. Then you can compare it to the charter fleet boats and balance the price of the private and charter boats against the wear and tear issue. The cost of the boat has to include the cost of bringing the boat up to a condition you find to be exceptable, and much of that cost hinges upon how much work you will do on the boat yourself compared to the high labour cost of contracing the work out. When this cost is factored in you may find the privately held boat, even at a higher price, may be a better bargain. I hope this helps you on your hunt. One cautionary note. If this is your first boat, no matter how much research you do, you can almost guarantee that whichever boat you buy will be the wrong one! Good luck. Brian Pickton aboard The Legend Rodney Bay St. Lucia.
RE: Buying a Charter Boat. Our Beneteau F456 was originally in a charter fleet for 3 years, then sold to the previous owner whom we purchased it from. The boat was badly neglected when we bought it. On the other hand the boat came extremely well equipped with electronics and air conditioning, all of which was operating when we bought the boat. The sails were o.k., the hull had numerous small blisters which did not trouble us. The engine showed neglect and was leaking oil from every orifice. All of the floors needed refinishing and one was suffering from rot due to condensation dripping from the air conditioning and had to be replaced. The hull was so dull it looked like it needed to be painted. All of these defects drove the price down from the original asking price by $35,000.00 U.S. The leaking engine was repaired by tightening up all of the engine bolts, particularly on the oil pan. Popular thinking says that Perkins 4-108 motors need to be rebuilt about every 10,000 hours. The cost when we looked into it would have been about $3500, not including the cost of removing and reinstalling the motor. Our engine hour meter was wired backwards and counting down when we bought the boat so we had no genuine idea how many hours the motor had on it. We still have not done a rebuild and the engine just keeps ticking, but we are meticulous about doing oil and filter changes. The dull hull was brought back to a bright finish by compounding and wax, no paint job was required. We did our own epoxy job on the hull and keel. The one faulty floor was replaced, the rest were sanded and refinished at home over the winter. The air conditioner was removed to increase storage space and replaced by fans. We did all of this work ourselves and feel we were well paid for it, since our then 7 year old 45 footer cost us less than $100,000.00. That was 7 years ago. We do need top side paint now! I'd buy another Beneteau in a heart beat, since apart from ordinary wear and tear the engine has held up remarkably well since we purchased it. The boat is a wonderful sailor: we revel in passing similarly sized Swans. We've sailed it from Vancouver to the Caribbean via the Panama canal over the last four years and have been very satisfied with it. That's been our experience. Being older and hopefully wiser now what I would do if looking to purchase a used boat is very carefully compare the cost of buying a used boat out of the charter business with the cost of a used privately held boat of the same age. For example The Moorings has a reputation for selling off their used boats in good condition and many purchasers I have spoken to have been very pleased with the condition of the boats they have bought, and what I've seen has impressed me as well. This is not true of boats coming out of all other fleets however, so you want to be careful with whom your dealing. Obviously a survey and sea trial is de riguer. On the other hand because the boats coming out of The Moorings fleet are often in such good condition they are commanding a premium price on the used market, and that's the pitfall. Because of the number of boats the Moorings controls it behooves them to support a high market price for the boats to keep their owners coming back. An individual owner on the other hand, with less at stake in terms of sustaining a market, may offer you a similarly equipped boat at a comparable or better price, of the same vintage, with much less wear on it than a charter boat. That is why it pays to very carefully moniter the private market and have patience until the model you want comes along. Then you can compare it to the charter fleet boats and balance the price of the private and charter boats against the wear and tear issue. The cost of the boat has to include the cost of bringing the boat up to a condition you find to be exceptable, and much of that cost hinges upon how much work you will do on the boat yourself compared to the high labour cost of contracing the work out. When this cost is factored in you may find the privately held boat, even at a higher price, may be a better bargain. I hope this helps you on your hunt. One cautionary note. If this is your first boat, no matter how much research you do, you can almost guarantee that whichever boat you buy will be the wrong one! Good luck. Brian Pickton aboard The Legend Rodney Bay St. Lucia.
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Trevor
Thanks Brian!
Thanks for the excellent information and advice in your post... I'll take it with me when viewing the six year old Oceanis 352 with 4000 hours on the Perkins. I've owned several boats from 28 to 56, but never a chartered boat. Someday (not on this boat) I hope to take a similar course from Seattle through the Panama Canal. Trevor
Thanks for the excellent information and advice in your post... I'll take it with me when viewing the six year old Oceanis 352 with 4000 hours on the Perkins. I've owned several boats from 28 to 56, but never a chartered boat. Someday (not on this boat) I hope to take a similar course from Seattle through the Panama Canal. Trevor
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Pierre
Find a owner's boat
I will find a beneteau oceanis 390 1993 very very clean. I think its the best trouble free.
I will find a beneteau oceanis 390 1993 very very clean. I think its the best trouble free.
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Paul C. Schuller
Would you buy a chartered Beneteau
When I moved to the British Virgin Islands in 1995, I did buy a Beneteau Moorings 38, which had been in a charter fleet in the BVI since she was built in 1990. She looked pretty good, not at all run-down and, of course, I had her surveyed before I actually bought her. I could make a good deal with the charter company, so I decided to leave it in the fleet. The benefit of this, is that I could use the boat whenever I wanted, which was quite a lot, because there were a lot of friends which came over for holidays and I always took them out for a week long sailing trip along the beautiful Virgin Islands. At other times, when I was not using her myself, she was chartered out and actually generating income. Being one of the best and most popular sailing spots of the world, there are always sufficient charters during the year, not only to cover the expenses, but also to earn a nice additional net income. Besides, it was an assurance that the boat would be very well and professionally maintained. After each charter, the boat is completely serviced and whatever needs repair is immediately repaired. And since the Beneteau 38 is an extremely popular model for charter in the BVI, all parts and expertise is readily available on the islands. As a conclusion, I can only see benefits in buying a boat that is or has been in a charter fleet. I would say that these boats are, in general, better maintained than privately owned yachts, where necessary repairs are often postponed until the next time, whenever that is. By the way, I still own the boat, it's still in a charter fleet in the British Virgin Islands, but since I've recently moved to Mauritius, I've decided to put her up for sale and buy a new boat to pick up sailing in this area. So if you're interested in buying her, please have a look at the advertisement in the Boats for sale section. Paul C. Schuller E-mail: paulschuller@intnet.mu
When I moved to the British Virgin Islands in 1995, I did buy a Beneteau Moorings 38, which had been in a charter fleet in the BVI since she was built in 1990. She looked pretty good, not at all run-down and, of course, I had her surveyed before I actually bought her. I could make a good deal with the charter company, so I decided to leave it in the fleet. The benefit of this, is that I could use the boat whenever I wanted, which was quite a lot, because there were a lot of friends which came over for holidays and I always took them out for a week long sailing trip along the beautiful Virgin Islands. At other times, when I was not using her myself, she was chartered out and actually generating income. Being one of the best and most popular sailing spots of the world, there are always sufficient charters during the year, not only to cover the expenses, but also to earn a nice additional net income. Besides, it was an assurance that the boat would be very well and professionally maintained. After each charter, the boat is completely serviced and whatever needs repair is immediately repaired. And since the Beneteau 38 is an extremely popular model for charter in the BVI, all parts and expertise is readily available on the islands. As a conclusion, I can only see benefits in buying a boat that is or has been in a charter fleet. I would say that these boats are, in general, better maintained than privately owned yachts, where necessary repairs are often postponed until the next time, whenever that is. By the way, I still own the boat, it's still in a charter fleet in the British Virgin Islands, but since I've recently moved to Mauritius, I've decided to put her up for sale and buy a new boat to pick up sailing in this area. So if you're interested in buying her, please have a look at the advertisement in the Boats for sale section. Paul C. Schuller E-mail: paulschuller@intnet.mu
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Jeff
Just Boaught a Moorings 405
I just boughta Moorings 405 from the fleet in Tortola at about half the cost I would have paid for one on the Chesapeake Bay. It needs some attention here and there but overall the boat the is in great shape and the cost of a new set of sails and a dodger are more than made up for in the price I paid for it.
I just boughta Moorings 405 from the fleet in Tortola at about half the cost I would have paid for one on the Chesapeake Bay. It needs some attention here and there but overall the boat the is in great shape and the cost of a new set of sails and a dodger are more than made up for in the price I paid for it.
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S. Bullins
Would you buy a chartered boat?
I am responding, not as a buyer, but as an owner of a chartered Beneteau. My sense is that it all depends on the charter company and their practices (which directly impacts their reputation). The charter co. that handles my boat is excellent. Everytime it comes in, they go over the sytems, checking filters, fluids (includes engine), looking for anything that has changed since the last look. The damage that you fret about is typically small scratches and blemishes that go unnoticed at first. THe big things, like bending a life line stantion on a dock pilling are replaced at the renters expense, so don't worry about those. I am finding that many of the small things like scratching the sole with Igloo coolers etc. can be repaired fairly easily in the winter. There aren't too many items that can't be polished back, cleaned, refinished, etc. with loving care. On the plus side, my boat gets used regularly, which is a good thing. Ex: Diesel fuel gets rotated through the tank a few times each season, so no bio growth in tanks. I believe the engine with 200 - 250 hours per season is better off than the one that only gets 50 hours. Write me if you want to go into that in more detail. I marked the RPM range with green tape for normal motoring. It is a bit higher than some expect, but keeps the engine healthier (ref. manufacturers recommendations). I digress! I am having a very good experience myself. It is because the charter company takes as good or better care of my boat than the average. THey even go over the dock lines to snug them when a blow is forecast to come in.
I am responding, not as a buyer, but as an owner of a chartered Beneteau. My sense is that it all depends on the charter company and their practices (which directly impacts their reputation). The charter co. that handles my boat is excellent. Everytime it comes in, they go over the sytems, checking filters, fluids (includes engine), looking for anything that has changed since the last look. The damage that you fret about is typically small scratches and blemishes that go unnoticed at first. THe big things, like bending a life line stantion on a dock pilling are replaced at the renters expense, so don't worry about those. I am finding that many of the small things like scratching the sole with Igloo coolers etc. can be repaired fairly easily in the winter. There aren't too many items that can't be polished back, cleaned, refinished, etc. with loving care. On the plus side, my boat gets used regularly, which is a good thing. Ex: Diesel fuel gets rotated through the tank a few times each season, so no bio growth in tanks. I believe the engine with 200 - 250 hours per season is better off than the one that only gets 50 hours. Write me if you want to go into that in more detail. I marked the RPM range with green tape for normal motoring. It is a bit higher than some expect, but keeps the engine healthier (ref. manufacturers recommendations). I digress! I am having a very good experience myself. It is because the charter company takes as good or better care of my boat than the average. THey even go over the dock lines to snug them when a blow is forecast to come in.
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Larry Watkins
Buying an ex-charter boat.
Before we bought our OC400, we looked into buying a boat out of charter, but the deciding factor was that all ex-charter boats had the three-cabin arrangement with the galley strung out along the port side. We preferred the two-cabin interior with the galley tucked in the aft starboard corner of the interior. The galley, and the sink full of dirty dishes, are not in your face all the time with such an arrangement.
Before we bought our OC400, we looked into buying a boat out of charter, but the deciding factor was that all ex-charter boats had the three-cabin arrangement with the galley strung out along the port side. We preferred the two-cabin interior with the galley tucked in the aft starboard corner of the interior. The galley, and the sink full of dirty dishes, are not in your face all the time with such an arrangement.
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William Fraser
Beneteau 432
Trevor, I just received a 432 1988 Beneteau from Fort Lauderdale which had spent five years with the Moorings charter service before six more years with a private owner. It is my belief from the condition of the boat that it was used by unknowledgable crews who did some general damage through neglect. It sat at the dock alot. I got an incredible price (45k) on this boat, all of the problems are minor and easily fixed. All of the systems are in pretty good shape , the engine has been rebuilt(common), and most of the useage was apparently involved with motoring to an anchorage,swimming and living aboard. I would describe it as a diamond in need of cleaning, which with an investment of 5 to 10 k is a VERY impressive cruiser/racer with new sails,2 showers,3 heads,teak interior,swim platform,bimini,50 hp perkins diesel,refrigerator, hot and cold water plumbing and a fantastic layout. The rigger here in Corpus said the spar and standing rigging looks like the boat was in fresh water. It needed a bottom job and other items but after an initial week or two of stress and work I'm beginning to really see that I've got a yacht easily worth twice what I paid, Really. Biggest problem? Getting it surveyed before you buy it such that banks and insurance will accept it beforehand. (Because the boats are neglected they don't survey well). But everything wrong can be put right in a few weeks by a good yard, most of it, normal boat maintenance. I dodged the financing hassles by paying cash, bringing the boat to Corpus, having the yard correct all of the survey discrepancies and then getting it financed to get my money back out of it.($500 a month isn't much for a world class cruiser and a Beneteau). I'd do it again, I made money and got a fantastic boat at the same time. Good luck. Bill Fraser ( my broker was Mark Lipkus at mitchells wellfound yachts in Key Largo). Fort Lauderdale is apparently something of a receiving ground for boats coming out of charter. Check Mark out, he's a good broker and easy to talk to. Good luck. Just do it! I'm running with the 200,000 dollar boats here. Bill Fraser
Trevor, I just received a 432 1988 Beneteau from Fort Lauderdale which had spent five years with the Moorings charter service before six more years with a private owner. It is my belief from the condition of the boat that it was used by unknowledgable crews who did some general damage through neglect. It sat at the dock alot. I got an incredible price (45k) on this boat, all of the problems are minor and easily fixed. All of the systems are in pretty good shape , the engine has been rebuilt(common), and most of the useage was apparently involved with motoring to an anchorage,swimming and living aboard. I would describe it as a diamond in need of cleaning, which with an investment of 5 to 10 k is a VERY impressive cruiser/racer with new sails,2 showers,3 heads,teak interior,swim platform,bimini,50 hp perkins diesel,refrigerator, hot and cold water plumbing and a fantastic layout. The rigger here in Corpus said the spar and standing rigging looks like the boat was in fresh water. It needed a bottom job and other items but after an initial week or two of stress and work I'm beginning to really see that I've got a yacht easily worth twice what I paid, Really. Biggest problem? Getting it surveyed before you buy it such that banks and insurance will accept it beforehand. (Because the boats are neglected they don't survey well). But everything wrong can be put right in a few weeks by a good yard, most of it, normal boat maintenance. I dodged the financing hassles by paying cash, bringing the boat to Corpus, having the yard correct all of the survey discrepancies and then getting it financed to get my money back out of it.($500 a month isn't much for a world class cruiser and a Beneteau). I'd do it again, I made money and got a fantastic boat at the same time. Good luck. Bill Fraser ( my broker was Mark Lipkus at mitchells wellfound yachts in Key Largo). Fort Lauderdale is apparently something of a receiving ground for boats coming out of charter. Check Mark out, he's a good broker and easy to talk to. Good luck. Just do it! I'm running with the 200,000 dollar boats here. Bill Fraser
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William Fraser
Beneteau 432
Trevor, I just received a 432 1988 Beneteau from Fort Lauderdale which had spent five years with the Moorings charter service before six more years with a private owner. It is my belief from the condition of the boat that it was used by unknowledgable crews who did some general damage through neglect. It sat at the dock alot. I got an incredible price (45k) on this boat, all of the problems are minor and easily fixed. All of the systems are in pretty good shape , the engine has been rebuilt(common), and most of the useage was apparently involved with motoring to an anchorage,swimming and living aboard. I would describe it as a diamond in need of cleaning, which with an investment of 5 to 10 k is a VERY impressive cruiser/racer with new sails,2 showers,3 heads,teak interior,swim platform,bimini,50 hp perkins diesel,refrigerator, hot and cold water plumbing and a fantastic layout. The rigger here in Corpus said the spar and standing rigging looks like the boat was in fresh water. It needed a bottom job and other items but after an initial week or two of stress and work I'm beginning to really see that I've got a yacht easily worth twice what I paid, Really. Biggest problem? Getting it surveyed before you buy it such that banks and insurance will accept it beforehand. (Because the boats are neglected they don't survey well). But everything wrong can be put right in a few weeks by a good yard, most of it, normal boat maintenance. I dodged the financing hassles by paying cash, bringing the boat to Corpus, having the yard correct all of the survey discrepancies and then getting it financed to get my money back out of it.($500 a month isn't much for a world class cruiser and a Beneteau). I'd do it again, I made money and got a fantastic boat at the same time. Good luck. Bill Fraser ( my broker was Mark Lipkus at mitchells wellfound yachts in Key Largo). Fort Lauderdale is apparently something of a receiving ground for boats coming out of charter. Check Mark out, he's a good broker and easy to talk to. Good luck. Just do it! I'm running with the 200,000 dollar boats here. Bill Fraser
Trevor, I just received a 432 1988 Beneteau from Fort Lauderdale which had spent five years with the Moorings charter service before six more years with a private owner. It is my belief from the condition of the boat that it was used by unknowledgable crews who did some general damage through neglect. It sat at the dock alot. I got an incredible price (45k) on this boat, all of the problems are minor and easily fixed. All of the systems are in pretty good shape , the engine has been rebuilt(common), and most of the useage was apparently involved with motoring to an anchorage,swimming and living aboard. I would describe it as a diamond in need of cleaning, which with an investment of 5 to 10 k is a VERY impressive cruiser/racer with new sails,2 showers,3 heads,teak interior,swim platform,bimini,50 hp perkins diesel,refrigerator, hot and cold water plumbing and a fantastic layout. The rigger here in Corpus said the spar and standing rigging looks like the boat was in fresh water. It needed a bottom job and other items but after an initial week or two of stress and work I'm beginning to really see that I've got a yacht easily worth twice what I paid, Really. Biggest problem? Getting it surveyed before you buy it such that banks and insurance will accept it beforehand. (Because the boats are neglected they don't survey well). But everything wrong can be put right in a few weeks by a good yard, most of it, normal boat maintenance. I dodged the financing hassles by paying cash, bringing the boat to Corpus, having the yard correct all of the survey discrepancies and then getting it financed to get my money back out of it.($500 a month isn't much for a world class cruiser and a Beneteau). I'd do it again, I made money and got a fantastic boat at the same time. Good luck. Bill Fraser ( my broker was Mark Lipkus at mitchells wellfound yachts in Key Largo). Fort Lauderdale is apparently something of a receiving ground for boats coming out of charter. Check Mark out, he's a good broker and easy to talk to. Good luck. Just do it! I'm running with the 200,000 dollar boats here. Bill Fraser
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