Worth the Cutter Rig?

May 29, 2018
460
Canel 25 foot Shiogama, japan
Hi Ellliot
Re:
I have a genneker
Is it worth getting a maybe 150% genoa and rigging a maybe 90% jib on the inner forestay?



I am a little confused with your posts concerning foresails.
I know you have a gennaker and are thinking of getting a 150% genoa and it seems that you already have a 90% jib.
Is that correct?

Is your 90% jib on a roller furler or hanked on?
Would the 150% be on a furler or stowed below?

A 90% jib seems very large to be rigged as a staysail on such a small boat.
Are you sure that it would fit?

Gary
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,098
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I have been thinking of installing a temporary forestay for more options in heavy weather for better CE.
The idea is good.
Be sure your “temporary” is installed with strong backing design. Note your purpose is for Heavy Weather sailing. The forces are serious on the boat. A light weight temporary install will likely not serve the purpose you intend.
 
Nov 22, 2011
1,192
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
At this point in your sailing career, i.e., as a beginner, I think you'd do well to not spend money converting the rig and spend time getting to know the boat and how to sail in general. It would also be good if you could crew on some other people's boats. You may or may not gravitate toward racing, but crewing on a racing boat is a way to pick up lots of pointers on sail trim and sailing in general that would transfer over to any kind of sailing you might want to do. It would be a way to increase your skill set in a relatively short amount of time vs. trying to figure out stuff by yourself or posting questions on a sailing forum (not that there's anything wrong with sailing fora! ;))

Yes, there are some potential advantages to a cutter rig for balancing the boat in heavy weather. But at this stage you aren't going to be crossing oceans with that boat (though the Flicka is capable of it), and none of the sailing you will be doing is going to require this sort of rig modification.

You've got a very stout, seaworthy vessel. I'd say you should learn its capabilities and also develop your own so you can more prudently direct your financial resources toward upgrades from which you will truly reap benefits at this stage.

If your sails are tired then I agree with others who have said buying new sails would be a great thing. You will realize an immediate benefit from that. But do it for your existing rig. I didn't notice whether you said yours are hank-on or on a furler, but roller furling is great if you don't have it. If you really want to splurge, get a mainsail stack pack with lazy jacks. I single hand almost exclusively and the stack pack is a wonderful addition because I can stow the main effortlessly and minimize the time I'm on the deck wrestling with my main. Also, if you don't have an autopilot, invest in one of those. Your boat is tiller steered and so you might consider a Pelagic, which is much more robust than the more common Raymarine.

And so forth. You get the idea. My point is that modifying the rig on that boat would be pretty far down my list of spending priorities, and at this stage you are still figuring things out. So leave the more exotic modifications for later, if ever, once you have more experience under your belt.
 
Jul 20, 2020
54
Hunter 30 1001 Nyack NY Hudson River
The idea is good.
Be sure your “temporary” is installed with strong backing design. Note your purpose is for Heavy Weather sailing. The forces are serious on the boat. A light weight temporary install will likely not serve the purpose you intend.
Yes that is my main concern, "where to attach", don't really want to start drilling and installing backing plates etc etc. Haven't really taken a close look as to where I would attach. I will most likely start investigating attachment points somewhere in or near the anchor locker? Figure there would be an existing strong point there. I would rather not go as far forward as the furler or anchor bow roller, I think that would defeat the purpose of moving CoE aft.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,098
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It appears you are considering the right stuff.

Have you found any drawings or plans/images of boats that have installed a removable staysail shroud? They may help you identify a strong point.

On my boat the bulkhead at the end of the V-berth is the strongpoint. From there the angle of the stay to the mast rigging follows the same angle as the forestay. This helps in establishing a good attachment point.

My design plan is to use the bulk head and attach a chainplate. This till transmit the forces to the deck and hull providing a strong point for the removable staysail shroud.

The shroud will use a tension able rig to install the stay when needed. For the staysail I plan to use a hank-on sail.

I do not see this sail as an additional foresail but as a tool to sail the boat in heavy weather on open water passage.

In exploring sail designs and placement on boat it appears it does not take a radical change in placement of the stay base to significantly move the center of effort further aft.

Agree, you want to really study this subject before you go putting another hole in your boat. At the same time the boats patch fairly easily if you make a boo-boo.
 
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Mar 25, 2021
85
Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20 119 Marina del Rey
Hi Ellliot
Re:
I have a genneker
Is it worth getting a maybe 150% genoa and rigging a maybe 90% jib on the inner forestay?



I am a little confused with your posts concerning foresails.
I know you have a gennaker and are thinking of getting a 150% genoa and it seems that you already have a 90% jib.
Is that correct?

Is your 90% jib on a roller furler or hanked on?
Would the 150% be on a furler or stowed below?

A 90% jib seems very large to be rigged as a staysail on such a small boat.
Are you sure that it would fit?

Gary
Ahhh, sorry for the confusion. We have a 90% jib in storage (we have never used it). The 150% would be on the roller Furler. I really don't know if it would fit. We also have a storm jib, not sure the sizing of it though.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,098
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
The 90% is designed to fit the Forestay and likely will not fit as a staysail without being altered. The triangle area for the staysail is much smaller than the area for the foresail (the area the jib was designed to fill.)

The area for the staysail can be 60% of the area for the jib.

On your Flicka you may find that the hull design provides more than enough directional stability that a stay sail is not necessary. A small jib (say 75%) and a double or triple reefed main will serve your needs in heavy weather and still maintain control.

As I reread your posts I get the feeling that you are not so much seeking alternative sail configurations for heavy weather but options to make your Flicka sail faster.
 
Mar 25, 2021
85
Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20 119 Marina del Rey
The 90% is designed to fit the Forestay and likely will not fit as a staysail without being altered. The triangle area for the staysail is much smaller than the area for the foresail (the area the jib was designed to fill.)

The area for the staysail can be 60% of the area for the jib.
This is true, although my jib is hank-on so it might be built to fit.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
@SailorElliot , I'm a little confused about what you are starting with ... maybe I missed it. What do you have on the boat now? I read that you have a gennaker and a 90% jib with hanks. Do you have any other head sails? What is the condition of your sails? Do you have a furler or do you hank on sails? Usually, sailors try to supplement their existing sail inventory. It sounds like you are starting fresh? Why do you want a 150% genoa? Are you just looking for max sail area on a stayed headsail? I made that mistake years ago ... I thought more sail area is better, right?. And perhaps a larger genoa is better in SoCal conditions. But not necessarily ... 135% may give you better overall performance and it could even be a better sail for lighter air. If you have furling, you may want to convert your 90% to furling rather than use it on an inner forestay (it may not fit or be the right fit for a stay sail).

I would learn more about the boat and what sail inventory is most appropriate for your Flicka 20 in your sailing area before buying sails. It's too easy to make bad choices without research!
 
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