Working Jib vs Reefed Genny

sailingdog · Jan 17, 2010

I'd go with a smaller genny, rather than a working jib. If you had a 110-120% genny, it would furl down to a working jib size and still have relatively good shape, especially if it had a foam or rope luff sewn in. A 160% genny is a huge sail and probably of fairly light material, since it is essentially a light-to-medium air sail at best.

Most roller-furling/reefing headsails will not reef with decent shape with more than 25-30% of the sail furled.

Joe Mullee · Jan 17, 2010

What About A "Gale Sail"?

I'm really asking a question since I don't know anyone who's actually ever sailed with one. It hanks on over the furled headsail and uses the extra halyard to pull it up and the tack height is adjustable. Don't know if I'd want one for serious offshore work but possibly for coastal cruising. I'd be curious about others thoughts.

Joe Mullee

Roger Long · Jan 17, 2010

sailingdog said:
I'd go with a smaller genny, rather than a working jib. If you had a 110-120% genny, it would furl down to a working jib size and still have relatively good shape, especially if it had a foam or rope luff sewn in.

That's exactly what I did and never noticed the reduced sail area. The difference between 120% and 160% is more significant under old racing rating rules than in the real world.

Go for as much leading edge as you can, that's what gets you upwind. Have the clew cut high. It gives you better visibility and makes the sheet lead less critical as you reef.

Being able to see under a clew in harbor traffic without contortions is great.

Alan · Jan 17, 2010

I've got both. A roller furlable #1 and a blade #3. In anything over 20 kts the #3 is hands down better. It points way higher and has much better sail shape. As a result the #3 is faster and has far less weather helm than a rolled genny. Tacking is faster and easier. You will need a different set of cars and tracks for the #3 to get the right sheeting angles but in a blow its well worth it. I have blown away many other bigger boats that were flying partially furled genoas with my #3.

Prime Time · Jan 17, 2010

Free Flying Jib

druid said:
Hi

I'm having problems getting enough "punch" upwind in 25 knots or so on my Crown 28. My old Cal 25 (essentially the same hull) went upwind in heavy weather great, and the Crown goes upwind great in lighter air.

Now, I have a BIG headsail - probably 160% or so, on Harken furling. I had a similar setup on my Catalina 36, and it sailed great in heavy weather with the headsail reefed down to 100% or less. HOWEVER, it did have a foam luff which flattened the sail when it reefed.

Now, I LIKE having a big genny furled so I can pull it out and sail if there's a bit of a puff. So, I'm thinking of 3 options:
1. Foam luff. Flattens the headsail, but there's still the rolled-up sail to disturb the airflow and the material is still light.
2. Get a working jib. Now, I'm too old to be changing headsails in heavy weather, especially trying to feed it into a slot instead of hanking it on. But I guess I could put it on before I went out if the forecast calls for heavy weather, and live with being undercanvassed if it's light.
3. Is there such a thing as a free-flying working jib? I have a spinnaker halyard so I could furl the genoa and hook in a jib at the head and tack. I don't want to do the opposite (have a jib on the furler and free-flying genoa) as I said above: the real advantage of a furled headsail comes up in light air.

Any suggestions?
druid
"Coatue" Crown 28

There is such a thing. You could put a jib on a free standing furler which consists of a drum and an upper swivel. They are the old schaeffer roller furling system revisited now for spinnakers and code zero type sails. That said, a smaller jib, like a 130 will furl down much better and be useable. Another option is a removeable solent stay which you would hank on a jib to.

Ray T · Jan 17, 2010

Re: Free Flying Jib

For over 20 knots of wind I would want a blade. It's about 100%, pretty flat and bullit proof. I had one on my Cal 227 and it pulled like a locomotive. Being somwhat flat it was very controllable.

David in Sandusky · Jan 17, 2010

Are you racing?

A big genny is a must for going to windward in light air. But I've never seen one work well in wind over 20 knots. I have seen them bust the furler, or get into an hourglass in heavy weather.

For cruising, we usually leave our 135 in the bag, fly a 110, and use our asymetric spinnaker for light to medium air when we are 60 degrees of more off the true wind (most of the time.) It's easy to furl the 110, and set the spinnaker with its sock. The 110 is good up to 20-25 knots, then we reef the main, and roll in about 20% of the 110. At 30 knots, we put the second reef in the main. We have sailed up to 35 knots in that configuration.

If you are racing, then you would have enough crew to change sails to fit the weather.

Jalepeno · Jan 17, 2010

Probably the best setup for your boat in our typical wet and windy winter weather is a “gale sail” to attach over your furled head sail and three sets of reef points in the main sail. I am going to get North Sails here in Richmond to modify an old heavy working jib from my previous boat into a “gale sail” and also add the third set of reef points. Your Crown is basically a locally built CAL very similar but a bit longer than mine. They are great boats.

Sumner · Jan 17, 2010

druid said:
.......................3. Is there such a thing as a free-flying working jib? I have a spinnaker halyard so I could furl the genoa and hook in a jib at the head and tack. Any suggestions? druid "Coatue" Crown 28

We have new sails ordered from Somerset Sails and Martin there told me we could run our old jib exactly that way. Our Jib halyard will be free to use as the CDI uses its own halyard. I would just need to add an attach point for the tack aft of the furler. I'm not sure, but I think he was suggesting running it inside of the Genoa with the genoa not reefed. Kind of like a cutter, but without a stay. Attached only at the tack and head like what you mentioned. I'm not sure if he was suggesting running it like that as the only head sail. I'd have to ask him.

I plan on making up a second forestay that can be quickly attached behind the furler using a Johnson Lever. Then use a hank-on storm jib on it if the need arises. In this case the genoa would be furled all the way in.

We got a 135 genoa with the hopes of retaining some decent sail shape when it is down about the size of the jib. Under that we would use the storm sail.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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BobM · Jan 17, 2010

You have nothing to lose but money by adding a foam luff. I was amazed at the shape and performance when I reefed my 135 the first time. Have the sailmaker take a hard look at the 160. There may be some things that can be done to support your planned use better. Perhaps a shallower belly than typical on a sail that size would help. Another thing, which I hesitate to add given your experience, is to check you mast rake. There may be something to gain upwind by a fairly minor adjustment.

Joe · Jan 18, 2010

Get the jib

Druid........ I recommend Sailingdog and Alan's solution. Get a smaller headsail, a 110 or 120 max. Some good reasons are: the smaller sail is much easier to handle single handed, you can effeciently reduce it to 80-90 percent with good shape, visibility will be much better, and you'll find it relatively easy to change since you have a good qualilty furler.

Forget the gale sail... you have to go forward to hook it up and besides, it's a special use sail. Not the answer for your need.

I wouldn't use a free flying sail for a blade... I just wouldn't.

Don't be concerned about having to change it all the time. If you're unsure about the day's forecast... start out with the smaller sail. It's much easier to change from #3 to #1 because conditions are calming than the other way around.... Anyway... if you don't want to go forward to change it... you can always roll up the three the way you're doing it now.

For me the ultimate setup would be to have free flying reaching sail on a sprit mounted furler, a furling 120 on the forestay for close reaching, and a detachable inner forestay for my hanked-on storm jib.

BTW... Sumner... what's up with all the line in your cockpit? Looks pretty crowded.

Sumner · Jan 18, 2010

Joe said:
Druid..........BTW... Sumner... what's up with all the line in your cockpit? Looks pretty crowded.

Ruth taking us out and away from a bad situation......

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

....to a place were we could regroup,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

Roger Long · Jan 18, 2010

druid said:
OK, I'm gonna have a wee chat with My Man Brent at Leitch&McBride and see what he can set me up with.

If you have a single spreader rig, look carefully at these proportions. It worked out so that the leech never touches the spreader tips but is just a couple inches away. I can see under the foot in all conditions and I go to windward at large heel angles. This jib is just perfect and works well reefed to the third position with two reefs in the main on winds gusting over 30 on a fairly tender boat. It has a foam luff which I would do again.

Here is how it sets although I wasn't strapped down hard at the time:

Joe · Jan 18, 2010

Sumner said:
Ruth taking us out and away from a bad situation......

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

....to a place were we could regroup,

Sum

Looks like you could have used a couple of big steel stakes and a sledge hammer, assuming you could find some ground to drive them into... no protection at all from the wind... guess that's why the rocks look so barren. What would you do different if faced witht the same situation? (You may have mentioned that, but I missed it.)

Sumner · Jan 18, 2010

Joe said:
Looks like you could have used a couple of big steel stakes and a sledge hammer, assuming you could find some ground to drive them into... no protection at all from the wind... guess that's why the rocks look so barren. What would you do different if faced witht the same situation? (You may have mentioned that, but I missed it.)

Sent you a PM so as not to mess this thread up any more,

Sum

David in Sandusky · Jan 19, 2010

Spinnaker in the sock

If we want the spinnaker ready, and/or don't feel like striking it down into the bag for some reason, we have sailed for hours with the sock tied down to the toe rail to leeward around the mast. It is a lot of windage aloft, but on some points of sail it works OK for us. We try to position it away from the entry to either sail, since I'm sure it fouls the air around it.

If we are on a long leg, and there is no hope to reset the spinnaker, then one of us will eventually go forward to drop it into its bag. But we have cruised for hours on a reach in that configuration without any issues.

bffatcat · Jan 19, 2010

head sail comments

I would go with a 135. Its not to big but not too small. When I have to shorten sail I start by reefing the main. If a reefed main is still too much sail I take it down. Beats rolling down
a genoa and the mediocre shape and pointing ability that comes with it. For me anyway Most mast head rigged boats will sail better with a reefed main a full headsail than a full main partially rolled jib.