I just discovered this site on 12/21/04. I am doing a significant overhaul to my 1980 Cal 25 Mk II. I'm the second owner and have had it since 1984. In the autumn of 2003, it was noted that the keel was "loose" or "wobbly" swinging an inch or more side to side in the sling. I sailed again all summer in 2004 and it didn't fall off! I am looking for details as to how this keel is attached to the hull (there are no bolts that I can see)and the overall construction of same. I have heard from many that this is "common" for Cal's to have this "swinging keel", but I'm not comfortable with the whole idea. No one seems (so far) seems to have an acceptable solution or solid advice. Can anyone help?
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Mike Dunlap
I just discovered this site on 12/21/04. I am doing a significant overhaul to my 1980 Cal 25 Mk II. I'm the second owner and have had it since 1984. In the autumn of 2003, it was noted that the keel was "loose" or "wobbly" swinging an inch or more side to side in the sling. I sailed again all summer in 2004 and it didn't fall off! I am looking for details as to how this keel is attached to the hull (there are no bolts that I can see)and the overall construction of same. I have heard from many that this is "common" for Cal's to have this "swinging keel", but I'm not comfortable with the whole idea. No one seems (so far) seems to have an acceptable solution or solid advice. Can anyone help?
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Bill
Keel Bolts
I am assuming that you pulled the floor up and looked in the bilge for bolts and found none, correct? If so, then, sorry, can't help you.
I am assuming that you pulled the floor up and looked in the bilge for bolts and found none, correct? If so, then, sorry, can't help you.
B
Bill
Keel Bolts
I am assuming that you pulled the floor up and looked in the bilge for bolts and found none, correct? If so, then, sorry, can't help you.
I am assuming that you pulled the floor up and looked in the bilge for bolts and found none, correct? If so, then, sorry, can't help you.
M
Mike Dunlap
Keel Bolts
Bill, that's correct. There are no keel bolts visible what so ever. Thanks for the reply.
Bill, that's correct. There are no keel bolts visible what so ever. Thanks for the reply.
M
Mike Dunlap
Keel Bolts
Bill, that's correct. There are no keel bolts visible what so ever. Thanks for the reply.
Bill, that's correct. There are no keel bolts visible what so ever. Thanks for the reply.
J
John Dawson
Flexing keel
Keel is encapsulated lead (no bolts) and hull does indeed flex. Subject was discussed for several models recently on the Cal-list at Sailnet. Didn't copy the discussion even tho its true for my 2-29. Join the Cal email list and ask the question again. Flexing fiberglass is not desirable and some reinforcement was discussed, but an inch sounds like its well within normal behavior.
Keel is encapsulated lead (no bolts) and hull does indeed flex. Subject was discussed for several models recently on the Cal-list at Sailnet. Didn't copy the discussion even tho its true for my 2-29. Join the Cal email list and ask the question again. Flexing fiberglass is not desirable and some reinforcement was discussed, but an inch sounds like its well within normal behavior.
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Bob Welsh
Wobbly keel /keel bolts
I am thinking about purchasing a Cal2-25 that needs keel repair. It went aground in a storm and ground through to the void on both the leading and trailing corners. I am curious, now that you have mentioned the flexing keel, about how it is attached and how the lead was encapsulated. Is it a block or shot?? The openings are about a 1/2 ft square each and there is a void behind the holes. Is the keel glassed onto the hull and integral or was it attached somehow after the hull came out of the mold??
I am thinking about purchasing a Cal2-25 that needs keel repair. It went aground in a storm and ground through to the void on both the leading and trailing corners. I am curious, now that you have mentioned the flexing keel, about how it is attached and how the lead was encapsulated. Is it a block or shot?? The openings are about a 1/2 ft square each and there is a void behind the holes. Is the keel glassed onto the hull and integral or was it attached somehow after the hull came out of the mold??
Solid lead
I would have to ask Roger for the details, as he worked in the Cal factory. The Cal ballast is a huge chunk of solid lead, not shot or blocks. On my 2-29 you can see a lifting ring on the top, so I am guessing that the pre-moulded lead was lowered into the keel and then resin was poured around it to make it integral; it appears to be quite joined with the surrounding fglass except for the empty well at the trailing edge. Perhaps you could use Salt-Away to remove residue of salt water from exposed areas; I'm told its really effective. As long as the fglass repair is well done and there is no other damage to the supporting hull, I expect it will be fine. The design is said to be able to take a substantial trauma without serious complications, unlike a bolt-on keel that usually shatters the supporting fglass. This month there is an article by the fellow that circumnavigated in a Cal 25 flat-top. The pictures show how he took the boat apart and reinforced the hull. Its an extreme example, but very informative of the Cal design. He loved the Lapworth design but knew the boat was not built for bluewater, so he turned his into a tank. Its in the current Jan-Feb '05 issue of Good Old Boat magazine. There was a discussion recently about the danger of having deteriorated fiberglass around the keel. It was described like this: when the boat is on the hard, sitting on its keel with the hull braced with stands, the structure is strong enough to support the entire hull easily. Should the fiberglass around the lower keel become defective (decomposing resin, etc), its possible that the boat will settle lower as the lead mass pushes up. Accordingly, you should be careful with a compromised keel case to watch for any change in the boats support until its examined and repaired. If the fglass is in good shape and the areas are as small as you describe, then its probably okay. I try to avoid sitting the boat on a plank where the empty well is (not sure the 2-25 is the same) to avoid stress problems. In general, the encased lead keel is one of the most problem-free arrangements; no corroding metal, no bolts to worry about, no underwater joint, no fractured hull from simple groundings. Join the Cal email list at Sailnet if you want to discuss the matter with experts. There are owners who have had their boats in boatisseries and carefully measured the distortion of the hull when rotated.
I would have to ask Roger for the details, as he worked in the Cal factory. The Cal ballast is a huge chunk of solid lead, not shot or blocks. On my 2-29 you can see a lifting ring on the top, so I am guessing that the pre-moulded lead was lowered into the keel and then resin was poured around it to make it integral; it appears to be quite joined with the surrounding fglass except for the empty well at the trailing edge. Perhaps you could use Salt-Away to remove residue of salt water from exposed areas; I'm told its really effective. As long as the fglass repair is well done and there is no other damage to the supporting hull, I expect it will be fine. The design is said to be able to take a substantial trauma without serious complications, unlike a bolt-on keel that usually shatters the supporting fglass. This month there is an article by the fellow that circumnavigated in a Cal 25 flat-top. The pictures show how he took the boat apart and reinforced the hull. Its an extreme example, but very informative of the Cal design. He loved the Lapworth design but knew the boat was not built for bluewater, so he turned his into a tank. Its in the current Jan-Feb '05 issue of Good Old Boat magazine. There was a discussion recently about the danger of having deteriorated fiberglass around the keel. It was described like this: when the boat is on the hard, sitting on its keel with the hull braced with stands, the structure is strong enough to support the entire hull easily. Should the fiberglass around the lower keel become defective (decomposing resin, etc), its possible that the boat will settle lower as the lead mass pushes up. Accordingly, you should be careful with a compromised keel case to watch for any change in the boats support until its examined and repaired. If the fglass is in good shape and the areas are as small as you describe, then its probably okay. I try to avoid sitting the boat on a plank where the empty well is (not sure the 2-25 is the same) to avoid stress problems. In general, the encased lead keel is one of the most problem-free arrangements; no corroding metal, no bolts to worry about, no underwater joint, no fractured hull from simple groundings. Join the Cal email list at Sailnet if you want to discuss the matter with experts. There are owners who have had their boats in boatisseries and carefully measured the distortion of the hull when rotated.
B
Bob Welsh
Wobbly Keel
Thanks very much for the feedback. The boat was surveyed after the accident and came up clean as far as collateral damage (popped webbing at the bulkheads, stress cracks, etc.). The damage was said to have been local to the bottom of the keel; still a daunting repair job to the layman however. From what I've seen, I think the keel arrangement is like your 29. There aren't any keel/hull joints, bolts, or signs of any special joinerwork. I get nervous about the wobby keel thing - perhaps the glass around the turn of the bilges is a bit scant or thin on some boats. I will have to check this boat out specifically for that and, as you say, make sure that the boat hasn't had too much weight put on the compromised keel when they set it down. I guess the void I am seeing is a space below the block of lead. I'm inclined to do some filling and shaping with some closed cell foam before starting to build up the glass again - unless generally known design issues regarding the ballasting. Does the boat have a reputation for being tender or stiff?? Perhaps it is an opportunity to add some more ballast way down low before sealing up the keel again. I would stiffen it up if it would make a beneficial difference. How does this boat club race and rate?? Any ideas?
Thanks very much for the feedback. The boat was surveyed after the accident and came up clean as far as collateral damage (popped webbing at the bulkheads, stress cracks, etc.). The damage was said to have been local to the bottom of the keel; still a daunting repair job to the layman however. From what I've seen, I think the keel arrangement is like your 29. There aren't any keel/hull joints, bolts, or signs of any special joinerwork. I get nervous about the wobby keel thing - perhaps the glass around the turn of the bilges is a bit scant or thin on some boats. I will have to check this boat out specifically for that and, as you say, make sure that the boat hasn't had too much weight put on the compromised keel when they set it down. I guess the void I am seeing is a space below the block of lead. I'm inclined to do some filling and shaping with some closed cell foam before starting to build up the glass again - unless generally known design issues regarding the ballasting. Does the boat have a reputation for being tender or stiff?? Perhaps it is an opportunity to add some more ballast way down low before sealing up the keel again. I would stiffen it up if it would make a beneficial difference. How does this boat club race and rate?? Any ideas?
Local damage
If he says its local damage, thats just dandy. A testament to Cal construction and the virtues of an encapsulated keel. In fact, if the hull took that punishment and wasn't a little flexible, what would it look like about now? Thats the kind of damage that will scare off less knowledgeable buyers, but not a Cal enthusiast looking for a good deal. While appearing fractured and fatal, someone else might know it was simply a matter of paying for a straightforward glass repair, or reading Don Casey books and learning it yourself. Its not rocket science. (Actually I sail with a rocket scientist, and he has a teeshirt that says "Actually, I AM a rocket scientist." As far as sailing qualities, you should talk to people who own that model. In general all the models seem to be performance oriented but well built and practical. The 29 likes to be reefed early, but is very solid in heavy weather, and renowned for its seakindliness. They are built to handicap formulas that pre-date the worst of later designs. The shape of the hull, and not lack of ballast, gives it its characteristics. There are websites that calculate comparative ballast ratios to get an idea how it compares. I wouldn't mess with those until you have researched it very well and know what you are doing. You can always open fiberglass again if you want; its nutty stuff that way. Anyway, talk to owners for that model.
If he says its local damage, thats just dandy. A testament to Cal construction and the virtues of an encapsulated keel. In fact, if the hull took that punishment and wasn't a little flexible, what would it look like about now? Thats the kind of damage that will scare off less knowledgeable buyers, but not a Cal enthusiast looking for a good deal. While appearing fractured and fatal, someone else might know it was simply a matter of paying for a straightforward glass repair, or reading Don Casey books and learning it yourself. Its not rocket science. (Actually I sail with a rocket scientist, and he has a teeshirt that says "Actually, I AM a rocket scientist." As far as sailing qualities, you should talk to people who own that model. In general all the models seem to be performance oriented but well built and practical. The 29 likes to be reefed early, but is very solid in heavy weather, and renowned for its seakindliness. They are built to handicap formulas that pre-date the worst of later designs. The shape of the hull, and not lack of ballast, gives it its characteristics. There are websites that calculate comparative ballast ratios to get an idea how it compares. I wouldn't mess with those until you have researched it very well and know what you are doing. You can always open fiberglass again if you want; its nutty stuff that way. Anyway, talk to owners for that model.
wobbly keel
My brother has a cal 25 and because it is an internal keel I never paid any attention to it. The only way it could wobble is by the glass being cracked. Some marine survayors can ultrason test the glass and see the cracks. I would then grind away the glass and put in new glass. The other way would be to drill and tap 4 to 6 holes at least 12" deep and put in 316 3/4 keel bolts in. You would have to glass in ribs for the keel bolts to spread the force into the hull. Keep the bolts in pairs and have them as far apart as you can. This is very difficult to do by hand . I do this kind of work give me an email husemand@netsape.net Don Huseman
My brother has a cal 25 and because it is an internal keel I never paid any attention to it. The only way it could wobble is by the glass being cracked. Some marine survayors can ultrason test the glass and see the cracks. I would then grind away the glass and put in new glass. The other way would be to drill and tap 4 to 6 holes at least 12" deep and put in 316 3/4 keel bolts in. You would have to glass in ribs for the keel bolts to spread the force into the hull. Keep the bolts in pairs and have them as far apart as you can. This is very difficult to do by hand . I do this kind of work give me an email husemand@netsape.net Don Huseman
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Mike Dunlap
Cal 25-2 Floppy Keel
Don, thanks for your comments. I tried to write back directly to you, but it bounced back. Do you have any sketches available to further explain? You can write to me directly at mdunlap2@juno.com
Don, thanks for your comments. I tried to write back directly to you, but it bounced back. Do you have any sketches available to further explain? You can write to me directly at mdunlap2@juno.com
F
Fishboat
wobble is normal
The keel wobble is normal on a Cal 25 (flat-top). I looked into this extensively when I picked mine up...talked to a designer, a yard manager that was very familiar with Cals, one marine architect, and the owner of Calgan Marine in Vancouver (he built Cal designs under his own shop & name). Also the Sailnet Cal list and two 20yr+ Cal 25 owners from the Detroit fleet. The net of all this was that the wobble was completely normal for this model as they all have it. Everyone also netted out at leaving it alone as reinforcement would have to be done very well(from a design & execution standpoint) or you will introduce a stress problem where none occurred previously. The whole hull & keel flexes (the stress is spreadout) & this is how the stress of the keel weight is relieved. RE: "The only way it could wobble is by the glass being cracked." Not true at all. The plastic portion of fiberglass(or a better term is glass reinforced plastic) is quite flexible....this is why woven glass is added to the layup...to stiffen things up.
The keel wobble is normal on a Cal 25 (flat-top). I looked into this extensively when I picked mine up...talked to a designer, a yard manager that was very familiar with Cals, one marine architect, and the owner of Calgan Marine in Vancouver (he built Cal designs under his own shop & name). Also the Sailnet Cal list and two 20yr+ Cal 25 owners from the Detroit fleet. The net of all this was that the wobble was completely normal for this model as they all have it. Everyone also netted out at leaving it alone as reinforcement would have to be done very well(from a design & execution standpoint) or you will introduce a stress problem where none occurred previously. The whole hull & keel flexes (the stress is spreadout) & this is how the stress of the keel weight is relieved. RE: "The only way it could wobble is by the glass being cracked." Not true at all. The plastic portion of fiberglass(or a better term is glass reinforced plastic) is quite flexible....this is why woven glass is added to the layup...to stiffen things up.
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