I'm looking at a '83 Catalina 25. The boat is in excellent condition. I was ready to close the deal when the owner mentions that when he purchased the boat 10 years ago, he noticed that the fixed keel wobbled when the boat was hauled out. He said he spoke with a surveyer and called Catalina and they told him that it was normal. Every google search I've made shows discussions indicating that a wobbly keel indicates an imminent catastrophic failure. I'm really confused about what to do. He has other full price offers so I will not be able to haul the boat out before committing to a purchase. the bilge is perfectly dry and clean and the keel boats are shiny with zero corrosion. The boat has been hauled out a few times over the years for bottom work and painting and no one has raised the issue. Here are some keel bolt/ bilge pics
Wobbly Fixed Keel
- Thread starter Nunami
- Start date
Without hauling the boat, inspecting the keel, and checking the bolt torque, there is no way to tell how serious an issue this is. If the owner has other offers, I'd let the other folks deal with the problem.
Keep looking, I'm sure you can find a boat with less questionable issues.
Keep looking, I'm sure you can find a boat with less questionable issues.
Agree with dlochner, wobbling keel is bad and is not normal. The keel bolts look good but they also appear to have never been torqued since it was built (the original gel coat is still on them). The fix could be as easy as re-torquing the bolts but without getting a good look at the keel out of the water, you're taking a chance that it would require more extensive/expensive work. Let someone else take the chance.
Wobbly keel is a red flag for sure. If everything is fine, why in the world would he disclose this? I really doubt any surveyor or Catalina would ever say that a "wobbly keel" is normal. This sounds ludicrous. I'm not sure why you would be this close to a final transaction without at least seeing the bottom and the described condition in person, let alone without a survey. Is the price too good to be true? There would be a reason for that ... are there really other buyers? Either investigate further or drop it. I will be very surprised if anybody in this forum tells you that a "wobbly keel" on a Catalina is normal. Perhaps, the seller is describing a "Catalina Smile" (which is related to the keel). That would be a different case, with a completely different set of recommendations. Perhaps you need to clarify ...
I think if you are thinking about it, it's time to do it. It's sort of like reefing.
I would not do it while the boat is in the water and the lead is just hanging there. Not that it would fall off. I just have the sense that it is better to snug up the bolts when there isn't any tension on the bolts or the substrate. Standing on ground will be better to get the keel seated property. I've never heard of it being an annual inspection and I think there should be no reason to worry about it on a regular basis. In this case, you've been forewarned!
That's a good question. Some manuals say the torque should be checked prior to every launch. Some people do it every year or two. Many people never do it. 39 years is too long to go without checking them. I would say re-torquing every 5 years would be sufficient as long as everything looks good. Torquing the bolts is no big deal as long as they're accessible. Here's a good article on keel bolts: Keel Bolt Inspection and Repair - Practical Sailor
Not too many folks here have owned Catalina 25 fixed keels. I have from 1987-98. You said the owner said which is close to heresay. Did it? How much? Is it still on? Seriously.
Your pictures show what appears to be in fine shape, but you can't tell if he's pulling your leg (or keel) without checking it yourself. With a bilge that spotless you'd think the rest of the boat would be in fine shape, and if it is, why give it up for maybe a non-issue.
You should also peruse and get to know these guys, who do nothing BUT C25s.
Good luck.
Your pictures show what appears to be in fine shape, but you can't tell if he's pulling your leg (or keel) without checking it yourself. With a bilge that spotless you'd think the rest of the boat would be in fine shape, and if it is, why give it up for maybe a non-issue.
You should also peruse and get to know these guys, who do nothing BUT C25s.
Good luck.
Depends. At least every 2 or 3 years or more often if you use the keel as a depth sounder.
Re-torqueing is not difficult. You will need a good torque wrench, appropriate sized socket, an extension, and the recommended torque values. With the boat on the hard and the weight of the boat on the keel, loosen each bolt and then retorque to specs. I do one at a time. This job can not be done with the boat in the water.
This is really what has me scratching my head. Its been meticulously maintained and upgraded so I'm surprised something so obvious was overlooked. Now he has admitted to a "soft" keel strike a couple of years ago..."Maybe I rubbed a sandbar" Curiouser and curiouser. I will tell him no deal unless he hauls it out for me. The bottom paint is 2 years old so I should be able to spot any separation or cracking.
Well, give the owner some credit for honesty. But I wouldn't trust his judgement. Keels shouldn't wiggle. If the bottom strike was hard enough to cause the keel to wiggle, there is the distinct possilbility of other more extensive and expensive damage. The place to look for damage is not on the keel. Look at the area behind the keel on the hull. The force of impact shoves the keel up and back which can cause hull to delaminate and other damage that is not easy to see.
Walk away. You are asking good questions, that shows 2 things: you know the limits of your knowledge and you are willing to learn more. Stick with the questions, avoid this boat unless you want to spend money on a well qualified surveyor and paying for the haul out.
Here I'm the contrarian:
Why are we assuming it's the keel bolts. Have we ever watched a hauled boat being set on its keel. It's cringe worthy.
My Mark 25 (C&C 25) had a wobbly keel. After I bought it, the first time it was hauled I approached the keel and gave it a shove. It rocked for maybe 5 seconds. I was horrified. The boat yard worker said "It's not as bad as many of the others."
Nevertheless I paid for a repair to make it stiff as a board. Of course that money didn't come back. The boat still oil canned and maybe it was worse because of the hard spot around the keel.
I would not want to take such a boat in the ocean (I did sail it to Block Island several times). For around the Peconic Bays, club racing and limited cruises it was fine, enjoyable and I often miss the simplicity of that boat.
Depending on your intended use the boat may be fine. Fiberglass is flexible material which has a great deal of strength. Don't panic.
Why are we assuming it's the keel bolts. Have we ever watched a hauled boat being set on its keel. It's cringe worthy.
My Mark 25 (C&C 25) had a wobbly keel. After I bought it, the first time it was hauled I approached the keel and gave it a shove. It rocked for maybe 5 seconds. I was horrified. The boat yard worker said "It's not as bad as many of the others."
Nevertheless I paid for a repair to make it stiff as a board. Of course that money didn't come back. The boat still oil canned and maybe it was worse because of the hard spot around the keel.
I would not want to take such a boat in the ocean (I did sail it to Block Island several times). For around the Peconic Bays, club racing and limited cruises it was fine, enjoyable and I often miss the simplicity of that boat.
Depending on your intended use the boat may be fine. Fiberglass is flexible material which has a great deal of strength. Don't panic.
If the boat is in the water, it is customary for the Buyer to pay for haul-out to complete a survey. If the boat is being sold while on stands it is customary for the Buyer to pay to put the boat in the water for a sea-trial. You can't expect the Seller to provide all of these services for you. You will need to put some skin in the game to find everything out that you need to know. If you are trying to buy this boat without a surveyor, I understand, but you should still pay for your own inspection requirements.
I've grounded on soft sand multiple times without ever questioning my keel or the bolts. A soft grounding is not a hair-raising event or even uncommon in our neck of the woods - we sail in 6' of water and there isn't a natural rock anywhere around for hundreds of miles (maybe that's an exaggeration). A soft "strike" sounds like something different to me. Just about any "strike" on rock would be alarming to me. You seem to be getting some clues, but not the entire story. It's a difficult decision to make whether or not to spend money investigating. Nobody can really give you any good answers to ease your mind. We all have our opinions and you know how that goes! Good luck however it turns out!
I agree with @Scott T-Bird on this one. Typical offer is "subject to inspection, out of water survey and sea trial" (launching or short haul to be paid by buyer, sea trial captain to be provided by seller).
If seller won't agree to those terms I'd keep looking. You could end up with some very expensive repairs.
PS - You will likely need a recent survey if you plan to insure the boat. It might be a worthwhile expense, especially in this case.
If seller won't agree to those terms I'd keep looking. You could end up with some very expensive repairs.
PS - You will likely need a recent survey if you plan to insure the boat. It might be a worthwhile expense, especially in this case.
I am the only one pondering why someone put screw(s) into the bottom of the boat right next to the keel bolt hole which is a weak spot.
This made me chuckle.
In my experience as a Realtor and home inspector, I cannot count the times I walked into a beautiful, spotless home only to find serious issues in the foundation, roof, structure, etc. upon closer examination. The same could be true with a boat, I suppose. I have seen how price can often be driven past actual value in a competitive bidding situation. I have also seen how people with the necessary resources can add value to a home (or boat, as the case may be) when there are items in need of fixing.
Bottom line, don't buy until it feels right. Do your research and buy when you are truly confident it's a good choice.
Happy hunting!
Those screws are presumably short, to hold the conduit, in a area where the FRP is solid and thick. I don’t see an issue with it.
I just paid several thousands of dollars to sea trial and survey a boat that I walked away from (as have many of the other folks on this thread). In the end, after the emotions had calmed down, it was a good use of money. Trust your instincts - if it feels wrong, there's probably a hidden and expensive problem there. How will you feel in five years when you are explaining to the next guy why the keel is moving? I'm with the others - 'wobbly' ain't normal. Plenty of other C 25's out there.