I will soon be installing a Raymarine 2KW scanner on my newly acquired 1983 Cat 30, and was wondering if there is a satisfactory method of doing so WITHOUT unstepping the mast. I will be mounting a Seaview platform somewhere around the speaders (depending on the exact location of existing lights etc.). It has been suggested that using the halyards (internal to the mast) to pull a "fish" line to the top from the bottom, and pulling the radar cable up from the bottom might work. Also I intend to install a juntion box in the cabin ceiling, where I will disconnect the cable within the cabin, for future disconnections. As an interim measure, I might also simply surface mount the cable for the upcoming season, and unstep the mast in the fall to complete the permanent installation with the mast down. The latter approach will complicate placement of the cable hole in the deck. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Wiring & Radar Installation on Deck-stepped Masts
- Thread starter Barry7363
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Unless set on mast mount try
a pole mount on the stern. Fewer problems, more straightforward installation; and shorter cable runs. Just a thought. Went that option on my 36' boat via a Garhauer pole and am completely satisfied.
a pole mount on the stern. Fewer problems, more straightforward installation; and shorter cable runs. Just a thought. Went that option on my 36' boat via a Garhauer pole and am completely satisfied.
Pole mount vs. mast
Thanks for the suggestion...however my inclination is to persist with the mast mount, partly because, once done, the range is enhanced somewhat, which along our coast can be important because we have a lot of variable fog from May to end of June some years. Also, would be more comfortable with increased separation from the radiation, although that is probably not a real concern...Barry
Thanks for the suggestion...however my inclination is to persist with the mast mount, partly because, once done, the range is enhanced somewhat, which along our coast can be important because we have a lot of variable fog from May to end of June some years. Also, would be more comfortable with increased separation from the radiation, although that is probably not a real concern...Barry
Radar mounting
Barry: I just purchased a J.R.C.1500 MK.2 and I had a friend of mine,electronic engineer do the calculations, hight of mounting pol vs. on the mast,and the diference is only 1.5 mi. he strongly advised me to go with the pole, more and more sailors are going that way. Just my two cents worth.
Barry: I just purchased a J.R.C.1500 MK.2 and I had a friend of mine,electronic engineer do the calculations, hight of mounting pol vs. on the mast,and the diference is only 1.5 mi. he strongly advised me to go with the pole, more and more sailors are going that way. Just my two cents worth.
Go with the mast mount
My 356 has a 2kw on the mast and it works great. In my opinion, the mast mount is superior to the pole because of the increase in target range while giving up little range near the boat. Also, the farther away from the radar the better. The range with a mast mount at 25 feet and a target of 25 feet is 12.31 miles. Reduce to a pole 7 feet high and the range is 9.41 miles. That is a 30 percent reduction in range. If you change the numbers to a pole height of 7 feet looking for a 5 foot target, the range is 6.01 miles. Put it back on the mast and the range increases to 8.91 miles - a 48% increase. I would go on and bite the bullet on the mast and fix it right to begin with. If you are going to step the mast anyway in the fall, why do it wrong and then have to fix it?
My 356 has a 2kw on the mast and it works great. In my opinion, the mast mount is superior to the pole because of the increase in target range while giving up little range near the boat. Also, the farther away from the radar the better. The range with a mast mount at 25 feet and a target of 25 feet is 12.31 miles. Reduce to a pole 7 feet high and the range is 9.41 miles. That is a 30 percent reduction in range. If you change the numbers to a pole height of 7 feet looking for a 5 foot target, the range is 6.01 miles. Put it back on the mast and the range increases to 8.91 miles - a 48% increase. I would go on and bite the bullet on the mast and fix it right to begin with. If you are going to step the mast anyway in the fall, why do it wrong and then have to fix it?
mastmount
did it last year on a 35.5. bigger project than expected. my major reason for mast mount was to keep the lines of the boat clean. no question that a pole is much less complicated, shorter runs and easier trouble shooting should it arise. here's the story. measure twice cut once. you will probaly get 25 feet of cable with two prefab ends. it will not be enough for the whole job. you need to order additional cable. you do not want to cut them if possible, choices are juntion box or step mast. step mast keeps the boat clean and no integrety is loss through the deck. cons-have to drop mast, hoever, if it is an older boat it is not a bad idea to drop check or change rigging. thus you bring the second cable to the to the step and make a clean connection. i had the run the extended cable fronm the unit back to the mast becusae the other end was to large to run forward. drop me an email and i would be happy to discuss it. you can find my original instalation in the archives.
did it last year on a 35.5. bigger project than expected. my major reason for mast mount was to keep the lines of the boat clean. no question that a pole is much less complicated, shorter runs and easier trouble shooting should it arise. here's the story. measure twice cut once. you will probaly get 25 feet of cable with two prefab ends. it will not be enough for the whole job. you need to order additional cable. you do not want to cut them if possible, choices are juntion box or step mast. step mast keeps the boat clean and no integrety is loss through the deck. cons-have to drop mast, hoever, if it is an older boat it is not a bad idea to drop check or change rigging. thus you bring the second cable to the to the step and make a clean connection. i had the run the extended cable fronm the unit back to the mast becusae the other end was to large to run forward. drop me an email and i would be happy to discuss it. you can find my original instalation in the archives.
Mast Mounting
You cannot do the mast mount properly with the mast stepped. How are you going to get the cable inside the conduit? I'm not a big fan of hanging Radars off the front of masts. They just don't play well with sails. A post mounted Radar has plenty of range for prudent seamanship. An 8 foot pole puts the unit 10-11 feet above the water. How far can you see on a clear day while standing in your cockpit? Why does anyone feel a need for greater range in fog than they can see in daylight? If the Radar is one foot higher than your head, it can "see" further than you can. What's the big deal?
You cannot do the mast mount properly with the mast stepped. How are you going to get the cable inside the conduit? I'm not a big fan of hanging Radars off the front of masts. They just don't play well with sails. A post mounted Radar has plenty of range for prudent seamanship. An 8 foot pole puts the unit 10-11 feet above the water. How far can you see on a clear day while standing in your cockpit? Why does anyone feel a need for greater range in fog than they can see in daylight? If the Radar is one foot higher than your head, it can "see" further than you can. What's the big deal?
Rob you need to get your money back
from the guy who taught you about radar. If this is the kind of logic you use for installing your radar, wear a helmet. Your drawing shows beam height not width. Width is horizontal not vertical. The vertical beam width is probably more like 50-60 degrees and is not a factor for either mounting. The issue is the curvature of the earth which causes the target to become "over the horizon" and therefore invisible to the scanner more as the scanner is lowered in altitude. You said "Moving the unit to the mast vs a 12' stern pole (in our case), creates a fairly large blind spot in front of the boat. " That makes no sense at all. If you meant to say that the so called blind spot would be aft, I can understand your thinking. You are still wrong in that case though because the antenna will see around the mast just like you can see around a stay if your nose is up against it. There is virtually no difference in these mounting methods as it relates to seeing close in objects. You are completely wrong on this consideration as well. The mast mounted one will probably have an edge but that is an advanced topic and you need to get the basics first. My recommendation is put the scanner as high on the mast as you can. This mast vs. pole mounting issue has been debated here many times but you should get a book so that you can understand what the debate is about in the first place. Note that the distance from radiation is an often overlooked but important factor. Radar radiation will over time affect your color vision. I speak from experience on that topic. One other point is that most informed people I have talked to say that a gimbal is not necessary. It may help a little but only a little and not worth the money as I see it.
from the guy who taught you about radar. If this is the kind of logic you use for installing your radar, wear a helmet. Your drawing shows beam height not width. Width is horizontal not vertical. The vertical beam width is probably more like 50-60 degrees and is not a factor for either mounting. The issue is the curvature of the earth which causes the target to become "over the horizon" and therefore invisible to the scanner more as the scanner is lowered in altitude. You said "Moving the unit to the mast vs a 12' stern pole (in our case), creates a fairly large blind spot in front of the boat. " That makes no sense at all. If you meant to say that the so called blind spot would be aft, I can understand your thinking. You are still wrong in that case though because the antenna will see around the mast just like you can see around a stay if your nose is up against it. There is virtually no difference in these mounting methods as it relates to seeing close in objects. You are completely wrong on this consideration as well. The mast mounted one will probably have an edge but that is an advanced topic and you need to get the basics first. My recommendation is put the scanner as high on the mast as you can. This mast vs. pole mounting issue has been debated here many times but you should get a book so that you can understand what the debate is about in the first place. Note that the distance from radiation is an often overlooked but important factor. Radar radiation will over time affect your color vision. I speak from experience on that topic. One other point is that most informed people I have talked to say that a gimbal is not necessary. It may help a little but only a little and not worth the money as I see it.
Radar Basics? 
Hmmm... "My recommendation is put the scanner as high on the mast as you can. This mast vs. pole mounting issue has been debated here many times but you should get a book so that you can understand what the debate is about in the first place." Why would the radar need to have a greater height of eye than the skipper? What reason is there for hanging the radar high in the fore-triangle? So you can see icebergs over the horizon while sailing at 30+ knots in the dark? FYI From the specs page of a JRC1500: Beam width: Horizontal 5.2 deg nominal Vertical 30 deg At 20 deg of heel, how does the range of the mast mounted unit compare to a gimbaled unit on a post? Who knows basics about Radar? Maybe someone should check their facts before they flame?
Hmmm... "My recommendation is put the scanner as high on the mast as you can. This mast vs. pole mounting issue has been debated here many times but you should get a book so that you can understand what the debate is about in the first place." Why would the radar need to have a greater height of eye than the skipper? What reason is there for hanging the radar high in the fore-triangle? So you can see icebergs over the horizon while sailing at 30+ knots in the dark? FYI From the specs page of a JRC1500: Beam width: Horizontal 5.2 deg nominal Vertical 30 deg At 20 deg of heel, how does the range of the mast mounted unit compare to a gimbaled unit on a post? Who knows basics about Radar? Maybe someone should check their facts before they flame?
Moody, you asked
"Why would the radar need to have a greater height of eye than the skipper?" Are you really asking that? "What reason is there for hanging the radar high in the fore-triangle? So you can see icebergs over the horizon while sailing at 30+ knots in the dark?" If you are sailing in 20 foot swells, it makes a lot of difference. There are a lot of other targets of concern which travel at those speeds. "At 20 deg of heel, how does the range of the mast mounted unit compare to a gimbaled unit on a post?" I would guess a lot better. There are other factors like wave action, weather, etc. "Who knows basics about Radar? " Someone who been trained in its use, has installed and repaired them, and has used it in all kinds of conditions. It helps to have a basic understanding of trigonometry and radios and electronics. Is there a library in Port Moody?
"Why would the radar need to have a greater height of eye than the skipper?" Are you really asking that? "What reason is there for hanging the radar high in the fore-triangle? So you can see icebergs over the horizon while sailing at 30+ knots in the dark?" If you are sailing in 20 foot swells, it makes a lot of difference. There are a lot of other targets of concern which travel at those speeds. "At 20 deg of heel, how does the range of the mast mounted unit compare to a gimbaled unit on a post?" I would guess a lot better. There are other factors like wave action, weather, etc. "Who knows basics about Radar? " Someone who been trained in its use, has installed and repaired them, and has used it in all kinds of conditions. It helps to have a basic understanding of trigonometry and radios and electronics. Is there a library in Port Moody?
Range
Sorry Patrick, when someone flames a post and makes factual errors in the flame, it bothers me. My point is that in fair weather conditions boats are operated within line of sight of the skipper. I don't see the logic of hanging the radar 20ft off the deck for greater range. Most sailboats can stop within half the distance of visibility. A 6 mile range is more than 60 minutes of warning at the speeds most of us travel. 20 foot swells ... have a period of? The radar scans at what rate? The Radar on a 10 foot post is blocked what percentage of the time? The VO70's that actually do sail at 30+ through icebergs at night don't have the radar mounted high in the foretriangle. I'm sure they will be happy to know how wrong they are. The link to the article in Ocean Navigator seems to be written with logic and experience, I'm sure they are wrong too. Thanks for clearing things up, I'll dust off my library card.
Sorry Patrick, when someone flames a post and makes factual errors in the flame, it bothers me. My point is that in fair weather conditions boats are operated within line of sight of the skipper. I don't see the logic of hanging the radar 20ft off the deck for greater range. Most sailboats can stop within half the distance of visibility. A 6 mile range is more than 60 minutes of warning at the speeds most of us travel. 20 foot swells ... have a period of? The radar scans at what rate? The Radar on a 10 foot post is blocked what percentage of the time? The VO70's that actually do sail at 30+ through icebergs at night don't have the radar mounted high in the foretriangle. I'm sure they will be happy to know how wrong they are.
The link to the article in Ocean Navigator seems to be written with logic and experience, I'm sure they are wrong too. Thanks for clearing things up, I'll dust off my library card.Much debate and consultation
is what you said as I recall, Rob. You got several critically important facts entirely wrong. The drawing is a glaring example. That demonstrates to me that you do not understand the basics of radar. It is your boat and your life, so do what you want. I am much more worried about your passengers and just do not want the next guy to believe what you have written is the gospel truth. Plenty of people will spout opinions without a second thought. They answer polls about poles in Practical Sailor. They need no experience or qualification to get posted here or to have their opinion count in PS. You obviously have neither. If my response seems harsh, think about being in 35 foot seas with 60 knot winds. You are depending on a radar mounted on a pole which is only able to see a target when it and the target are out of the trough with enough coincidence for the radar to see it. You vomit every time you try to focus on the screen and there are a couple of freighters passing at 25 knots. Then a wave comes over your stern and breaks the radar pole and it falls into the water. While trying to retrieve it, the cable tangles in your prop and then you are hit by the second freighter and your boat sinks in two minutes. I won't be coming out to help you then but I may help look for the wreckage if there is any to be found when the weather clears a couple of days later. I hope you are wearing a PFD and are able to deploy a good EPIRB so that we don't spend two weeks looking for your body. I just cannot afford the two weeks without pay.
is what you said as I recall, Rob. You got several critically important facts entirely wrong. The drawing is a glaring example. That demonstrates to me that you do not understand the basics of radar. It is your boat and your life, so do what you want. I am much more worried about your passengers and just do not want the next guy to believe what you have written is the gospel truth. Plenty of people will spout opinions without a second thought. They answer polls about poles in Practical Sailor. They need no experience or qualification to get posted here or to have their opinion count in PS. You obviously have neither. If my response seems harsh, think about being in 35 foot seas with 60 knot winds. You are depending on a radar mounted on a pole which is only able to see a target when it and the target are out of the trough with enough coincidence for the radar to see it. You vomit every time you try to focus on the screen and there are a couple of freighters passing at 25 knots. Then a wave comes over your stern and breaks the radar pole and it falls into the water. While trying to retrieve it, the cable tangles in your prop and then you are hit by the second freighter and your boat sinks in two minutes. I won't be coming out to help you then but I may help look for the wreckage if there is any to be found when the weather clears a couple of days later. I hope you are wearing a PFD and are able to deploy a good EPIRB so that we don't spend two weeks looking for your body. I just cannot afford the two weeks without pay.
Oops, just noticed your link
about weather radar. The dish antenna used in that example is not at all like the one found in a boat radar. The characteristics are different and it is not a valid reference for this discussion. Moodys' link is a good one though for the most part. Was that one at the library, Moody? I am sorry (a little) about my tone. It is snowing here again...
about weather radar. The dish antenna used in that example is not at all like the one found in a boat radar. The characteristics are different and it is not a valid reference for this discussion. Moodys' link is a good one though for the most part. Was that one at the library, Moody? I am sorry (a little) about my tone. It is snowing here again...
Patrick
I dont think I ever said that the pole was a better solution than the mast, The mast does have its advantage to see further, in high seas and deep troughs. What I said was in my situation it may not be the best choice. reread my post. In reading the information, See new link, and new Furuno owners manual, I never said I was a Radar expert. However I have spent over 32-years on the water, from Sea Scouts, camp, owning my first 19' day sailor, to the 28' C&C, to the Tartan 34, to crewing on a 134' schooner in Rhode Island, working on a Lobster-Boat in Narragansett, and being pulled under on a coil of line, and now on our 46' sloop. I have spent my time on the water, both in good weather and in bad and in protected waterways and offshore. Radar has been a luxury for me until now, So the education process begins. Its your condescending tone thats riled me. You know there are first time sailors here, completely green, and if they dont feel like they can post a reasonable question without being reamed then they just wont post ANY. I thought we worked through this last year ,,,there where a rash of responses that told everyone hey look in the archives dont ask such crappy questions. I think we all have a little cabin fever. Ill make sure I also, polish off my library card!. Rob
I dont think I ever said that the pole was a better solution than the mast, The mast does have its advantage to see further, in high seas and deep troughs. What I said was in my situation it may not be the best choice. reread my post. In reading the information, See new link, and new Furuno owners manual, I never said I was a Radar expert. However I have spent over 32-years on the water, from Sea Scouts, camp, owning my first 19' day sailor, to the 28' C&C, to the Tartan 34, to crewing on a 134' schooner in Rhode Island, working on a Lobster-Boat in Narragansett, and being pulled under on a coil of line, and now on our 46' sloop. I have spent my time on the water, both in good weather and in bad and in protected waterways and offshore. Radar has been a luxury for me until now, So the education process begins. Its your condescending tone thats riled me. You know there are first time sailors here, completely green, and if they dont feel like they can post a reasonable question without being reamed then they just wont post ANY. I thought we worked through this last year ,,,there where a rash of responses that told everyone hey look in the archives dont ask such crappy questions. I think we all have a little cabin fever. Ill make sure I also, polish off my library card!. Rob
If someone is intimidated
by my tone to the point that they do not ask an important question, they are certainly not prepared for the sea. If someone is too lazy to do some research or check facts, I will point that out if I think it is important. I just speak plainly what I know. If it bothers someone enough to look up the facts, that is ok with me. Don't like it, don't read it. No personal attacks or name calling will change my commitment so why bother calling my mother names? She is dead and I do not care what you think of her so my advice is knock it off or we will end up with Fred in forum Hell. Your new link looks like good info. I will read it when I have a little more time. It has snowed one half inch in the last 20 minutes. How are things in Seabeck, Fred?
by my tone to the point that they do not ask an important question, they are certainly not prepared for the sea. If someone is too lazy to do some research or check facts, I will point that out if I think it is important. I just speak plainly what I know. If it bothers someone enough to look up the facts, that is ok with me. Don't like it, don't read it. No personal attacks or name calling will change my commitment so why bother calling my mother names? She is dead and I do not care what you think of her so my advice is knock it off or we will end up with Fred in forum Hell. Your new link looks like good info. I will read it when I have a little more time. It has snowed one half inch in the last 20 minutes. How are things in Seabeck, Fred?
um patrick...
I never called your mother any name. I would never do that. I do belive you have a great understanding of radar and that is what I was hoping you would contribute to the group. I look forward to your future constructive responses. enough said. .........come on spring!
I never called your mother any name. I would never do that. I do belive you have a great understanding of radar and that is what I was hoping you would contribute to the group. I look forward to your future constructive responses. enough said. .........come on spring!
Rob, wrong again
You said "You are such a pomus SOB". That is a perjorative acronym for words comparing ones mother with a dog. Nothing to do with sailing that I can think of so we may get pulled over by the sheriff soon. At least it has stopped snowing for a while.
You said "You are such a pomus SOB". That is a perjorative acronym for words comparing ones mother with a dog. Nothing to do with sailing that I can think of so we may get pulled over by the sheriff soon. At least it has stopped snowing for a while.
ah patrick
you are so right, after I posted the last message I realized I did call you an SOB, sorry, bad choice of words, I actually meant no disrespect to your mother, sorry about that. 70 degrees here this weekend!.
you are so right, after I posted the last message I realized I did call you an SOB, sorry, bad choice of words, I actually meant no disrespect to your mother, sorry about that. 70 degrees here this weekend!.
Further to radar connections and best location
Gentlemen, I am sorry that my inquiry respecting the pros/cons of mast mount vs. pole mount have generated such animosity between some contributors...as I see it, the various opinions/preferences and CIVIL discussion are helpful to me in considering the varying opinions....and ultimately to satisfy myself that whatever I ultimately do has the benefit of all of your various experiences. I am still leaning towards the mast mount approach, the DETAILS of how are now the issue for me, (which now include the best method of completing the junction for disconnection when the mast is unstepped from time to time). Regards and appreciation to all for taking the time to respond, Barry
Gentlemen, I am sorry that my inquiry respecting the pros/cons of mast mount vs. pole mount have generated such animosity between some contributors...as I see it, the various opinions/preferences and CIVIL discussion are helpful to me in considering the varying opinions....and ultimately to satisfy myself that whatever I ultimately do has the benefit of all of your various experiences. I am still leaning towards the mast mount approach, the DETAILS of how are now the issue for me, (which now include the best method of completing the junction for disconnection when the mast is unstepped from time to time). Regards and appreciation to all for taking the time to respond, Barry
Back to the initial question...
Barry, For your temporary mount, run the cable through the cabin skylight seal (your C30 should have a skylight hatch located less than a foot behind the mast). That should work for temporary through the cabin top access without having to drill holes (I hate to drill holes in my boat, anywhere!). Then do it right next time you pull the mast. Good luck, & the rest of you need to play nice & go sailing!
Barry, For your temporary mount, run the cable through the cabin skylight seal (your C30 should have a skylight hatch located less than a foot behind the mast). That should work for temporary through the cabin top access without having to drill holes (I hate to drill holes in my boat, anywhere!). Then do it right next time you pull the mast. Good luck, & the rest of you need to play nice & go sailing!
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