wire sizing

Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
MS
You recommended I add a second charge controller to my 2 panel setup.
We have one Bluesky 2512i and a pair of Kyocera 140w panels. Adding a second 2512 will require about 30 to a max 40 feet of wire. For only one panel direct to the controller, I see 12 gauge is sufficient.
Sound right?

I plan on splicing the 2 outputs together for a single run to the batts using the existing wire and fuse that goes from the current 2512
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
I am sure interested in the answers you are going to get with this one from Maine Sail! Why 2 ea. 25 amp controllers? Chief
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
woodster: I don't want to chop this as it is addressed to MaineSail. I am curious to see what he says. Chief
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Cant recite the techno stuff but basically, no matter how you do it, if one panel is shaded it limits the output of both panels when wired into one controller.

Adding another 25 amp capacity is overkill but I figured to have a second match the first.
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
If you have one shaded panel and one good one into the same controller I don't see how it will help you by running each into a separate controller. Chief
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
If both panels are mounted on the same plane, just how often would you think one panel will put out less/more than the other? I wired a switch on each of my panels feed so I can go series, parallel, or take either one off line so as to check each output. Of course if you're sailing off to the boondocks, it would be an idea to have a spare controller anyway, but why have them both working and wearing out at the same time? Stay with one controller, and bridge the inputs.

Of course, if one or both get shaded often, perhaps it's time to rethink their location?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
MS
You recommended I add a second charge controller to my 2 panel setup.
We have one Bluesky 2512i and a pair of Kyocera 140w panels. Adding a second 2512 will require about 30 to a max 40 feet of wire. For only one panel direct to the controller, I see 12 gauge is sufficient.
Sound right?

I plan on splicing the 2 outputs together for a single run to the batts using the existing wire and fuse that goes from the current 2512
Yes your panel location is not optimal but it is what it is. With two MPPT's you could do slightly better.

There can be a small gain by adding a second MPPT but this gain in performance needs to be weighed against other boat projects. Two 2512's is a bit overkill, expense wise, but they are decent controllers. If you have the money to do it it certainly won't hurt your perforamnce and can make it slightly better. That said even a small 40-50W panel placed elsewhere would surpass the gains from the second MPPT on the larger panels..

By using two MPPT's each controller can better track and maximize the available power point of each panel. Alex M. the CEO of Genasun (MIT EE) studied this extensively before going into production with the Genasun MPPT controllers. As a sailor he recognized the impact shade plays on boats vs. on land and he wanted to build something that could yield the most from each panel in the manner they are installed on boats..

The gains beyond a single MPPT are not huge but can certainly be worthwhile if you have no place else to go. The Genasun controllers were designed specifically to do this, one controller per panel, and they are less expensive, but also lack customization etc..

As for the wire from controller to battery bank, if it was sized to handle the max output before it will handle the max now.. The less voltage drop the better...
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
From earlier conversations, I was under the impression I was going to get a big improvement.

From 2 140 watt panels the most I get is about 12 amps, maybe 15. With one panel partly shaded I'm at around 7 amps. Checked with a dc clamp on ammeter. No clouds, sun directly overhead. I checked all wires and connections and everything is solid and wired correctly.
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Very good analysis Mainesail. Just so happens I even agree with you. The small gain isn't worth the work and cost. Chief
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
From 2 140 watt panels the most I get is about 12 amps, maybe 15. With one panel partly shaded I'm at around 7 amps. Checked with a dc clamp on ammeter. No clouds, sun directly overhead. I checked all wires and connections and everything is solid and wired correctly.
with my experiance with the actual usable numbers after the install, I would say this is about right for a normal install in normal weather. and thats a lot of amps accumulated in a day...

the system on your boat is commonly called a 12 volt system, but its actually a 13.2 volt system...
so just working the simple numbers, a 140w panel working to its very maximum rated output would be around 10.7amps....(which in my opinion is an impossible number except in the lab) so 2 panels may double that... an mppt contoller can give a bit of an increase in actual output...

when the panels get warm, they start dropping off output. the warmer they get the less efficient they are.
they need the sun, but they like wintertime sun better than summertime sun... sunny and cold will give the best output.

sometimes the output will be quite a bit more than at other times, due to the weather and if there is even the slightest of shading on the panels, but once all things are taken into consideration and the wire sizing deductions are factored, to expect more than 50-65% of the "rated" output of the panels, is likely to be a disappoint you in the end....
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
From earlier conversations, I was under the impression I was going to get a big improvement.

From 2 140 watt panels the most I get is about 12 amps, maybe 15. With one panel partly shaded I'm at around 7 amps. Checked with a dc clamp on ammeter. No clouds, sun directly overhead. I checked all wires and connections and everything is solid and wired correctly.
You really need to track day to day averages then see how many Ah's per day you are harvesting, on average or per week on average. 12A seems a bit low but if the panels are hot output goes down. In the South the sun is stronger but the panels get hotter and lose output performance. I have a single 140A panel and routinely see it surpass 8A with MPPT. Daily averages vary with as much as 58Ah per day to as little as 16Ah... With my LFP bank my average MPPT boost is about 18-22%, you should see similar with a 900Ah bank & 280 watts..

The improvements with two controllers can make a good difference but remember we are talking a 10-15% improvement on a 10-20% MPPT boost. So, when drilled down, money is often better spent adding yet one more panel, if it will fit. If it would not fit, and you have no more room for wattage the the gains can only come from better tracking accuracy or an ability to articulate the panels.... Would I go two controllers on our boat, absolutely, if we had two panels....

Here's what a typical week in spring looks like between PWM and MPPT:



The weather for this testing could not have been worse but it is real world. I did not stop the testing for rain, fog or clouds because real weather happens and I wanted realistic data. The data is what it is, and simply represents Maine in the spring... Despite the lousy weather MPPT beat PWM every single day.

MPPT Ah's 7 Day Total = 220.44

PWM Ah's 7 Day Total = 182.48

Percentage Gain For MPPT = 20.8% Boost

These were identical 140W Kyocera panels..
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
So we are going to look at adding another panel. Not thrilled with mounting options...

Meantime, is there a cheaper, effective alternative to the Bluesky controller? I was just picking that one to match the existing one.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So we are going to look at adding another panel. Not thrilled with mounting options...

Meantime, is there a cheaper, effective alternative to the Bluesky controller? I was just picking that one to match the existing one.
The 2512i is now one of the more reasonably/competitively priced controllers out there. Why? I can't fully divulge...;)

Here's a hint... Genasun & Blue Sky
 
Jun 28, 2005
440
Hunter H33 2004 Mumford Cove,CT & Block Island
I've been really happy with my Sunsaver Model: SS-MPPT-15L controller, especially like its logging feature. (attached)
 

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Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
E-marine specifically stated to me in an e-mail that if a Shine Solar panel fails, e-marine will send me a new one, I wont have to deal with the factory. They added that this will NOT be the case with any Solbian panels I buy from them.
I think I'm ordering 2 Shine 120w panels and a 2512i controller. These will be side rail flip-out mounts near the stern.
Roughly doubling my output should take care of most of my energy needs!