I've not yet tried sailing with the swing keel up... I did try it about halfway up one time..didn't really feel a differance. Is the wing keel essentially the same without the swing keel? Since the floods hit this area (SE PA) my boat is on the dry, sooooooo.. I've been doing some things that needed doing. Mast rake was top of the list! let out the backstay turnbuckles as much as possible. dropped the cdi lower. let out the shrouds too! top of mast seems to moved a good 6" forward! Yes! she had allot of weather helm. Just need to finish tuning the mast. Anyone have any experiance with a backstay adjuster on our little boats? The new Bimini top is already great and that's just while on the dry!. Sun and heat have been brutal this summer and it's only July 3rd! thanks in advance! Denise
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love my backstay adjustor
we put a split stay adjustor on our h23. I strongly recommend it. We use a 4 to 1 fall led down to the stern mooring pin. Try it. You'll like it. I've never been able to compare the difference between swing and wing keels. Possibly a difference in pointing ability or leeway. At 2'3" draft on the wing keel, shallow water is not an issue for me. Changing the mast rake should help with your weather helm. If you've ever been wind surfing, its directly analogous - moving the center of effort forward relative to the center of lateral resistance (your hull and keel). Otherwise think of a pencil on a pin. Push behind the pivot and it points to the side you are pushing on. Push in front of the pivot and it points away from the side you are pushing on. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
we put a split stay adjustor on our h23. I strongly recommend it. We use a 4 to 1 fall led down to the stern mooring pin. Try it. You'll like it. I've never been able to compare the difference between swing and wing keels. Possibly a difference in pointing ability or leeway. At 2'3" draft on the wing keel, shallow water is not an issue for me. Changing the mast rake should help with your weather helm. If you've ever been wind surfing, its directly analogous - moving the center of effort forward relative to the center of lateral resistance (your hull and keel). Otherwise think of a pencil on a pin. Push behind the pivot and it points to the side you are pushing on. Push in front of the pivot and it points away from the side you are pushing on. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Weather helm and mast rake...once again
The H23 weather helm topic crops up every so often and it seems to me that every time it does, mast rake gets blamed first. Excessive heel, an unbalanced sailplan and poor mainsail trim also contribute to weather helm. I'm not saying excessive mast rake should be ignored, just that there are other (easier) things that can be done, even while under way, to address excessive weather helm. First, try to reduce excessive heel. Most H23 sailors seem to agree that heel should be kept under 15 degrees. Unless the air is light, crew and skipper should be on the windward side of the cockpit, or if need be up on the coaming or out on the rail. I often steer from the coaming using a tiller extension. The H23 is light and quite responsive to changes in weight trim. It can be steered with no rudder input simply by shifting weight from one side to the other. Try it sometime while under power with the tiller locked straight ahead. Next, try improving sailplan balance. Main and jib should be sheeted as needed to balance each other. The mainsail tries to turn the boat up into the wind and the jib tries to turn it away from the wind. If the sailplan is balanced, the boat will tend to track straight ahead with very little input needed from the helm to keep it on course. Weather helm is a sign that the main is more powerful than the jib. This is to be expected, as the H23 main is larger than the stock 110 jib. Oversheeting the jib slightly to power it up or easing the main slightly to depower it (the preferred method) will reduce weather helm. The boat can be steered with no rudder input by adjusting the sheets. Try it sometime by adjusting sail trim with the tiller locked straight ahead. Then, try improving mainsail trim. Most people tend to overtrim the main, mainly because it's so easy to do so. The H23 mainsail and the mainsheet tackle are both quite powerful. As the main is sheeted in and the boom approaches the centerline of the boat, the mainsheet tackle starts to pull the boom DOWN rather than IN. This closes (tightens) the leech (trailing edge) of the main, increasing power and weather helm. Easing the mainsheet slightly will allow the boom to rise, opening the leech and depowering the mainsail WITHOUT changing the position of the boom. When going to weather on gusty days I don't cleat the main. Instead, as a gust hits and the boat starts to heel (I can feel the tiller starting to load up) I ease the sheet just a bit to keep the boat on her feet and reduce the load on the tiller. The boat will accelerate and as she does, I sheet back in. Many people trim the main using the position of the masthead wind indicator or by watching the luff of the sail for flutter. Neither is as good as using the leech of the sail. Tie some telltales to the leech at each batten pocket. On a properly trimmed main, the telltales should stream aft. Telltales hooking to windward are a clear sign that the main is overtrimmed. Ease the sheet or bend the mast. The backstay adjuster allows you to bend the mast like a bow, which does two things at once: flattens the main and opens the leech. This is a VERY effective way to depower the main and reduce weather helm when going upwind. All this is important because the less weather helm you have, the closer to center you can keep the tiller and the less drag the rudder creates. That means more boat speed for the racers and a lighter, more comfortable helm for the cruisers. Your tillerpilot will also draw a LOT less power. However, weather helm is not all bad. A little weather helm improves tiller feel, turns the boat up into the wind if you drop the tiller in an emergency and improves upwind sailing by creating hydrodynamic lift (more on that later if you like). Sorry this is so long. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
The H23 weather helm topic crops up every so often and it seems to me that every time it does, mast rake gets blamed first. Excessive heel, an unbalanced sailplan and poor mainsail trim also contribute to weather helm. I'm not saying excessive mast rake should be ignored, just that there are other (easier) things that can be done, even while under way, to address excessive weather helm. First, try to reduce excessive heel. Most H23 sailors seem to agree that heel should be kept under 15 degrees. Unless the air is light, crew and skipper should be on the windward side of the cockpit, or if need be up on the coaming or out on the rail. I often steer from the coaming using a tiller extension. The H23 is light and quite responsive to changes in weight trim. It can be steered with no rudder input simply by shifting weight from one side to the other. Try it sometime while under power with the tiller locked straight ahead. Next, try improving sailplan balance. Main and jib should be sheeted as needed to balance each other. The mainsail tries to turn the boat up into the wind and the jib tries to turn it away from the wind. If the sailplan is balanced, the boat will tend to track straight ahead with very little input needed from the helm to keep it on course. Weather helm is a sign that the main is more powerful than the jib. This is to be expected, as the H23 main is larger than the stock 110 jib. Oversheeting the jib slightly to power it up or easing the main slightly to depower it (the preferred method) will reduce weather helm. The boat can be steered with no rudder input by adjusting the sheets. Try it sometime by adjusting sail trim with the tiller locked straight ahead. Then, try improving mainsail trim. Most people tend to overtrim the main, mainly because it's so easy to do so. The H23 mainsail and the mainsheet tackle are both quite powerful. As the main is sheeted in and the boom approaches the centerline of the boat, the mainsheet tackle starts to pull the boom DOWN rather than IN. This closes (tightens) the leech (trailing edge) of the main, increasing power and weather helm. Easing the mainsheet slightly will allow the boom to rise, opening the leech and depowering the mainsail WITHOUT changing the position of the boom. When going to weather on gusty days I don't cleat the main. Instead, as a gust hits and the boat starts to heel (I can feel the tiller starting to load up) I ease the sheet just a bit to keep the boat on her feet and reduce the load on the tiller. The boat will accelerate and as she does, I sheet back in. Many people trim the main using the position of the masthead wind indicator or by watching the luff of the sail for flutter. Neither is as good as using the leech of the sail. Tie some telltales to the leech at each batten pocket. On a properly trimmed main, the telltales should stream aft. Telltales hooking to windward are a clear sign that the main is overtrimmed. Ease the sheet or bend the mast. The backstay adjuster allows you to bend the mast like a bow, which does two things at once: flattens the main and opens the leech. This is a VERY effective way to depower the main and reduce weather helm when going upwind. All this is important because the less weather helm you have, the closer to center you can keep the tiller and the less drag the rudder creates. That means more boat speed for the racers and a lighter, more comfortable helm for the cruisers. Your tillerpilot will also draw a LOT less power. However, weather helm is not all bad. A little weather helm improves tiller feel, turns the boat up into the wind if you drop the tiller in an emergency and improves upwind sailing by creating hydrodynamic lift (more on that later if you like). Sorry this is so long. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
Pete U R da man
forgive my ignorance but maybe you can answer this noob one question - If mast rake is citing as being such a villain in regards to weather helm, what exactly are the pros (if any) of raking the mast farther back than it should be? I'm told it will make the boat point higher... Don't have enough experience to confirm that myself, but whats the deal?
forgive my ignorance but maybe you can answer this noob one question - If mast rake is citing as being such a villain in regards to weather helm, what exactly are the pros (if any) of raking the mast farther back than it should be? I'm told it will make the boat point higher... Don't have enough experience to confirm that myself, but whats the deal?
Ahoy Androctus
I'm no expert but I can't see any advantage to "raking the mast farther back than it should be" on a typical sailboat. However, excessive mast rake is essential for windsurfers because they have no rudder. Raking the mast aft moves the sail and its center of effort (CE) aft in relation to the center of lateral resistance (CLR) of the board. This forces the stern of the board away from the wind, turning the board to windward. Raking the mast forward has the opposite effect. That's why a windsurfer mast has no rigging and a ball joint at the base. I've learnied (sometimes the hard way) that sailing is all about balance. The maddening yet fascinating thing is that the balance point changes constantly. You have to be aware of (and often anticipate) changing conditions so you can adjust for them and maintain that balance. I guess that's the reason why they say, "Learning to sail takes an hour, but learning to sail WELL takes forever." Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
I'm no expert but I can't see any advantage to "raking the mast farther back than it should be" on a typical sailboat. However, excessive mast rake is essential for windsurfers because they have no rudder. Raking the mast aft moves the sail and its center of effort (CE) aft in relation to the center of lateral resistance (CLR) of the board. This forces the stern of the board away from the wind, turning the board to windward. Raking the mast forward has the opposite effect. That's why a windsurfer mast has no rigging and a ball joint at the base. I've learnied (sometimes the hard way) that sailing is all about balance. The maddening yet fascinating thing is that the balance point changes constantly. You have to be aware of (and often anticipate) changing conditions so you can adjust for them and maintain that balance. I guess that's the reason why they say, "Learning to sail takes an hour, but learning to sail WELL takes forever." Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Thanks Peter!
Peter, you write very concisely yet with enough detail that a newbie like me can understand 90% of what you're saying. I've finally started to catch on to sail trim, especially the need for spilling wind and de-powering the main. My first reaction when a gust hits, is to steer toward the wind, but that's somewhat self defeating. I'm going to experiment more with easing the jib and the main sheet when I feel the wind is overpowering the boat. Too often, I've chickened out and dropped the jib completely because the boat was heeling over 30 degrees when trying to sail a beam reach. Thanks for the tips!
Peter, you write very concisely yet with enough detail that a newbie like me can understand 90% of what you're saying. I've finally started to catch on to sail trim, especially the need for spilling wind and de-powering the main. My first reaction when a gust hits, is to steer toward the wind, but that's somewhat self defeating. I'm going to experiment more with easing the jib and the main sheet when I feel the wind is overpowering the boat. Too often, I've chickened out and dropped the jib completely because the boat was heeling over 30 degrees when trying to sail a beam reach. Thanks for the tips!
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