Wing vs Swing

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Sep 4, 2012

There is one consideration. If (when) you run aground, you can't heel the boat to get it off, and if you go into soft mud, it can be REALLY hard to get it back out.

Anonymous 121765 · Sep 4, 2012

UPS,

TS made a good point about grownding. I stayed away from a boat I was looking at awhile back for this same issue.

That being said, I helped my buddy bring his new 1990 Newport 30 winged keel boat back recently. It's a 140 mile overnite trip from Charlotte Harbour to Madeira Beach area of St. Pete.

Here are my thoughts on the wing vs fin keel:
The winds were 15+ clocking around over nite from close on the bow to a broad reach. Seas went from 4 to 6 feet thru the nite. even in these conditions (mostly motoring) the boat was surprisingly steady with little roll as with a fin keel. The boat seemed stiffer and the ride was softer. Not alot of hold on moments.

On the last leg, we had 6 footers off the stern and not a single stern roll away moment. Also I noticed alot less heel as opposed to a fin. I had a C22 swing keel and absolutely hated it.

I've sailed his boat and found it to be about 1.5 kts faster than my C30 to windward, & equal to mine on a broad reach. I fly a 155 & the Newport has a 130. In addition I felt his autopilot works alot less than mine because of stiffness, less roll or rounding.

In summation, I was very impressed with the handling, speed & ride with the wing.
Don't worry about grounding, just get everyone up on the bow & most times you can back off. I may get a wing for my next boat. I assume you are looking at a larger than the 22 you have now. Don't even think of a swing keel...........

CR

RAD · Sep 4, 2012

The shallowest wing keel I've seen is about 4'3 and like others have said when you go aground your aground and if you can spin yourself off or wait for the tide is about your only option.
I have a 32 with a centerboard and the only maintenance is every 4 years I cut about 4" off the stainless cable where it attachés to the board and replace the thimble, when I replaced the cable a few years back I saw what was happening at the attachment point and added some extra cable and the only other keel ordeal is painting up inside the slot and that I do right before launch while hanging in the straps with a skinny roller and a cut pole.....takes me less than an hour
BTW my draft is 3' 4"/7' 1"

shemandr · Sep 4, 2012

The only advantage I can think of for a winged keel is it gets the ballast weight down low. A bulb would do nearly as well and have a lot less drag. In my mind the wing concept for cruising boats was a marketing invention after the AC Australia victory. More hype than fact. And I have a winged keel.
I have run aground but so far have gotten off with little trouble.
As far as sailing goes, without consideration of depth, I would prefer a deep fin keel to a wing any day. If the depths in your sailing area don't favor a deep fin than a torpedo bulb or scheel keel. If I couldn't find that then I would consider the wing and finally a shoal keel (Or a powerboat).
Boards are a whole other category. It's hard to compare a Laser and a Tarten 37.

Anonymous 121765 · Sep 4, 2012

She,

UPS was asking about a fin vs swing keel.

I looked at the bulb keels and liked those alot, however what I experienced with the wing keel in ugly conditions, was optimum.

It's all about the sailing we do, & I as an open water guy, found the wing to work great in a myiad of conditions....

CR

CaptDon01 · Sep 4, 2012

C-22 Swing vs Wing?

Seems like most of the answers given were with larger boats. Are you trying to decide about another C-22 with the optional wing keel? I've had both, and we currently sail a MK-II version, which has the Capri-22 wing keel. Personally, I would never go back. Yes, slightly less performance, won't point as high, but still has respectable performance, about zero maintenance, no "CLUNK", and only draws a little more water than the C-22 swing keel draws with the keel pulled up. I usually don't run aground, so I've never experienced the usual comments about wing keels digging into the bottom like a plow anchor. And I don't mean to offend any of my swing-keel brothers and sisters, but when it gets rough out in the ocean, (like it was this past weekend as we pounded our way north along the coast for about 4 1/2 hours), it just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing my keel is thru-bolted with 6- 1/2" stainless steel bolts vs 4- 5/16" bolts screwed into a weldement suspended in fiberglass. But then again, that's just my opinion......

Don

letsail · Sep 4, 2012

I had a wing keel on an '86 Hunter 23. It drew 2'3" and the boat would not round up until I reached a 30 degree heel. I could not quite point as high as the big kids but I loved the flat sole in the cabin as opposed to a keel trunk down the middle. When I sailed into shallow water if it grounded, it stuck real good because it was an 18 inch wing as opposed to a fin keel. With a swing keel, of course, you simply winch it up a few turns if you run out of water. If you trailer sail, it is easier to launch and retrieve a swing keel as well as climbing on board while on the trailer. With a swing keel you MUST be sure that the cable is very good...that is stainless not galvanized because breaking a cable while afloat means a diver has to go down to replace it. It will be too heavy to winch back onto the trailer while hanging fully extended. Also the bolt that it swings on must be in good condition or you will be definitely in the pucker brush if it breaks!

Chris Patterson · Sep 4, 2012

Everything is a trade off, and this seems to be particularly true of sailing boats. Everything has been said here pretty much. Yep, you get your floor back, but it's nine feet high on a trailer. You can crank up a swinger off the shoals, but that Mickey Mouse hinging mechanism is "concerning", (although they seem to hold up, despite the smaller bolts).

But......if I had one that lived in the water most of its life, I'd probably run with the wing. It IS a shallower draft than the swing, and if you shoal it, well.......should have been reading those charts, or plotter. And before anybody starts screaming at me about grounding a boat, yes, I have done it too. Sail long enough, and MOST do. I builds character. Learn new tricks about kedging yourself off.

I however, have always been intrigued by the wing. In '83 at the A.C., the Aussies did hand Dennis his ass, but the majority of the blame should go to the N.Y.Y.C. But when Conner came back at 'em, (with a wing of his own), we all know the results. The fastest 12 meter in the world didn't do it on a fin, shoal, OR bulb keel. Now, there were a thousand other contributing factors to the '87 race as well, but the facts are, what they are.

jimmcgee · Sep 4, 2012

I had a wing keeled Catalina 22 and I have a wing keeled Catalina 30.

On the 22 I'd take a wing keel over a swing keel any day for the low maintenance and peace of mind.

I sail in thin water on Barnegat Bay and so far have been able to get off if I bump bottom with the wing. But then the bottom here is sand. I understand the Chesapeake mud is pretty sticky, which may be why some here are so concerned with grounding. Where you're sailing in NY there are rocks to contend with which is a whole other ball game.

The trailer for my 22 wing had a tongue extension to make launching easier. Remember the wing still only draws 2 1/2 feet.

higgs · Sep 4, 2012

I think that winged keels have proven themselves to be a good way to get wiegh low, while reducing draft. Swing keels don't do that and they have the added maintenance issue. I would think performance would be better with a wing, though not as good as a fin. imho fixxed is ALWAYS better, though a keel/centerboard has its advantages, too - but that is not the issue here.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Sep 4, 2012

higgs said:
imho fixxed is ALWAYS better, though a keel/centerboard has its advantages, too - but that is not the issue here.

Which is why on my 21 footer, with a cast iron swing, in a cast iron keel. I bolted the thing in the UP position, added 200 pounds of lead and have been sailing since 1999 with it. Grin

Now draw 2 feet, gave up about 5 degrees to windward, and love it. Shoal draft is a great asset on a gunkholing boat becasue if you DON'T run aground, you're not exploring the most intriguing spots

Wanderer138 · Sep 5, 2012

I owned a wing-keel Hunter 23 for 11 years and loved it. Flat sole in the cabin and eight solid keel bolts. The bottom of the keel is long, flat and wide; the wings are actually about six inches off the bottom at the back of the keel. The draft was only 2'-3" so the times when I ran aground, I just stepped off the boat and that was enough to float it free. I could then walk the boat back to deep water and climb back on board. The H23 rudder is also deeper than the keel so you feel the bottom through the tiller and hopefully turn around before you run aground.

Since the keel is fixed, the trailer has to go farther down the ramp into the water to launch/retrieve the boat. When the boat is on the trailer, you'll probably need a ladder to get on deck. Wing keels usually don't point as well as deep centerboards, but if you bear off about five to ten degrees with a wing keel, you can usually get better boat speed to make up the distance.

On the other side of the coin, my Wanderer has a centerboard but I rarely use it, as the boat sails quite well with it up.

MrUnix · Sep 5, 2012

I've had both.. basically, the deeper your keel, the better performance, particularly when pointing upwind. Both a fixed keel and a swing keel satisfy that (getting deeper into the water).. however a fixed keel needs more clearance under the boat, limiting your ability to get in skinny water. A swing keel solves that problem, but adds the extra maintenance AND a potential hazard should you get knocked down, where the keel could slam back into the hull and cause serious damage (some allow you to lock it into position, and that causes a whole other problem should you go aground). A wing keel is kind of a compromise.. it gives you the benefit of a fixed keel while allowing you to get into shallower water, but you lose a bit of performance. Fixed keels (including wing keels) also allow more cabin space as mentioned since you don't need the pocket like a swing keel does.

Several have mentioned the H23 and it's wing keel.. there were actually two variations of that keel made. The early ones have a wing keel with a centerboard.. 2 foot draft with it up, and almost 5 foot with it down (4' 11"). Later models got rid of the centerboard and added 3" to the wing keel (and a little more weight due to the increased length).

They all have their advantages and disadvantages.. it really depends on what kind of sailing you want to do and where.

Cheers,
Brad

Pat · Sep 5, 2012

UPSGUY said:
I'm thinking of moving into a wing keel boat. I like the swing keel design but would like to eliminate one more maintenance point. Is there any thing I should consider other than depth of the keel when trying to decide? Does the wing keel have any flaws that I should be aware of?

While I have not read all the replies, I would not trade the 2'-11" wing keel on ourO'Day 272 LE....We have run aground on our inland lake three times, but on all three occasions we were able to back right off....I really should pay more attention to the depth alarm. If the wind really pipes up on our linland lake, we can reef the main and roll in some headsail and still remain very comfortable to windward...the boat sails exceptionally well. My only complaint is that the boat seems slightly more tippy getting on or off at the dock....In articles I've read by C.Raymond Hunt Assoc. there was
discussion both regarding the chord length of the keel (could have perhaps have been longer), and the width of the wings....but boy, it's great sailing in
higher winds when reefed...

Patrick in Wichita

Crazy Dave Condon · Sep 6, 2012

FYI, a form of a wing keel has been traced back to the 1890's, so the Auzzies did not invent it at first.

higgs · Sep 6, 2012

I would not reccomend a boat with a rudder that draws more than the keel. If your sailing along at 5 knots and hit something - you want it to be your keel, not your rudder. Hunter did make a few boats like and I never could understand why. A deeper keel will perform better and if the rudder needs 3 feet, why not put the keel that deep? You already need 3 feet of water so the keel may as well go that deep.

Fly_H23 · Sep 7, 2012

sailingoday17 said:
I had a wing keel on an '86 Hunter 23. It drew 2'3" and the boat would not round up until I reached a 30 degree heel. I could not quite point as high as the big kids but I loved the flat sole in the cabin as opposed to a keel trunk down the middle. When I sailed into shallow water if it grounded, it stuck real good because it was an 18 inch wing as opposed to a fin keel. With a swing keel, of course, you simply winch it up a few turns if you run out of water. If you trailer sail, it is easier to launch and retrieve a swing keel as well as climbing on board while on the trailer. With a swing keel you MUST be sure that the cable is very good...that is stainless not galvanized because breaking a cable while afloat means a diver has to go down to replace it. It will be too heavy to winch back onto the trailer while hanging fully extended. Also the bolt that it swings on must be in good condition or you will be definitely in the pucker brush if it breaks!

Actually you can drag a swing keel boat back on its trailer...I had to do it once on my Macgregor 22 after my cable broke! Doh...?

I've also owned a Hunter 23 wing keel and found it far better all around. Unless you launch every time you sail or need to beach your boat regularly, why bother with a swing keel?

Jerry B · Sep 8, 2012

Swinging and Winging...

I tend to agree with Pat in Wichita. I had a 22 Catalina for years. Great boat, but all the cranking and loud clicking - bringing the keel up and down, up and down - got real "old" after a while. And I too love my Oday 272LE, with a happy medium of keel and shallow draft. And zippo maintenance to worry about.:dance: