i am in the process of assessing for purchase a 2002 Catalina 310 with wing keel and double spreader rig. Posted draft 4'10". I have received nothing but negative comments from other sailboat owners. This will be my fifth sailboat having owned two Tayana's, a nonsuch, a CC 39 C/C, and a Sabre 34 C/B. We really like the Catalina except we are hobbled by ignorance with a wing keel. I am concerned about two things: rounding up when going to weather and drag when heeled. Sail trim may be the answer but I wonder what the experience out there is with this particular configuration..
Wing keel performance
- Thread starter Bonhommecove
- Start date
My 2005 Catalina 310 has a winged keel, In-mast roller furling main, and fixed three blade prop. The draft is 4' 10". It isn't a fast boat, but if you are a racer, you wouldn't be buying a 310. The boat was designed as a coastal cruiser for a couple in comfort. In that role, it it excels. The large cockpit can hold lots of folks. and it is very comfortable below. Light air performance (5 knots) is mediocre. The boat is happy at 8 to 15 knots. Above that you should give serious consideration to reefing, particularly if there are higher gusts. Definitely reef at 20 knots.
The shoal keel is very convenient in my local waters, which can be quite shallow. At low tide, 1/2 of my marina has less about 5 ft of water. Six foot fin keels are an issue and can only go in the slips furthest out.
My boat has a 155 roller furling Genoa. Under full sail, with the apparent wind at 20 knots, I can just hold the boat, on the edge of rounding up. If the wind gusts up above that I will round up. The solution is to reef. The boat sails just fine reefed. You won't loose a lot of speed because you won't be sailing with the rail in the water. She is better sailing upright.
I was just on the water today in a race. In apparent wind above 15 knots, I was faster than a Catalina 27 with a fin keel, in wind 10 to 15 we were about even. Below that he was clearly faster. I also had a Dodger and Bimini. They had a two-blade folding prop, crew lining the rail getting hit with spray, and all were sun-burned back at the dock. I was going in style, had lots of room, was quite comfortable, and my crew enjoyed cold beer and sandwiches from the reefer. To each his own.
It all depends on what you want out of the boat. There were only about 350 Catalina 310s built. They are popular and tend to hold their value. I am very pleased with my boat.
Be sure to check out the Hurth transmission. All the 310s have, or will have transmission issues eventually. It is undersized for the boat and 25 HP engine.
The shoal keel is very convenient in my local waters, which can be quite shallow. At low tide, 1/2 of my marina has less about 5 ft of water. Six foot fin keels are an issue and can only go in the slips furthest out.
My boat has a 155 roller furling Genoa. Under full sail, with the apparent wind at 20 knots, I can just hold the boat, on the edge of rounding up. If the wind gusts up above that I will round up. The solution is to reef. The boat sails just fine reefed. You won't loose a lot of speed because you won't be sailing with the rail in the water. She is better sailing upright.
I was just on the water today in a race. In apparent wind above 15 knots, I was faster than a Catalina 27 with a fin keel, in wind 10 to 15 we were about even. Below that he was clearly faster. I also had a Dodger and Bimini. They had a two-blade folding prop, crew lining the rail getting hit with spray, and all were sun-burned back at the dock. I was going in style, had lots of room, was quite comfortable, and my crew enjoyed cold beer and sandwiches from the reefer. To each his own.
It all depends on what you want out of the boat. There were only about 350 Catalina 310s built. They are popular and tend to hold their value. I am very pleased with my boat.
Be sure to check out the Hurth transmission. All the 310s have, or will have transmission issues eventually. It is undersized for the boat and 25 HP engine.
Thank you KZW. Helpful comments. Our prevailing winds are 15-20kn. We sold our Sabre 34 C/B because it constantly side slipped or rounded up although reefing was a bigger production than the 301.
Can you comment further on the transmission issues?
Can you comment further on the transmission issues?
Weren't the New Zealanders or Australians that unveiled a wing keel in the America's Cup many years ago? I do not know the average depth of your sailing waters but here in the shallow waters of Florida we have come to appreciate the wing keels. It allows for a lesser draft with practically no loss of leverage or pointing ability. As far as additional drag I would say that compared to a fin keel the leading edge length would be similar to a fin keel but just configured differently. One drawback we have found is that on a sand grounding the fin keel will act like an anchor making it more difficult to free ourselves (no advantage to heeling the boat).
I have a 34 wing keel and love it. All that talk you are hearing is from low information sailors. From experience over the last10 years i have found no negatives to the wing keel. My boat a Catalina 34 is solid and a great sailor. Much better than my previous o day 30 with a centerboard. My sailing buddies here in SW Florida would also agree with this assessment of the wing keel. Naturally everyone has an opinion but take it from a happy owner, you will not be disappointed with sailing performance.
Terry's right. There were 1,801 Catalina 34s made. We have 700 members in our International Association. Many are active on our Forum. We have TONS of real-world input. Almost all other Catalinas have active owners associations with similar input.
All of the ones in Florida (with intelligent skippers who looked at a chart before they bought a fin keeled boat - 5'-7" draft!) and most in the Chesapeake bought wing keel. Those of us in California and the PNW bought fin keels. In our San Francisco Cup last year a rare (for here) wing keel beat us!
The notion that wing keels are inferior in pointing is just utter nonsense. Sure, it may be "technically true" but it's immeasurable.
Catalina has been very successful with their wing keel designs on their boats. Almost all of them have had that option.
If you have shallow water, buying a fin keel 'cuz you think it won't round up compared to a wing keel is just plain silly.
If you have deep water and just found a wing keel boat that's superb but has a wing keel, buy it, you won't notice any difference unless you're Dennis Conner.
They put extra weight in the wing keel to make it even with a fin keel in moment arm.
All of the ones in Florida (with intelligent skippers who looked at a chart before they bought a fin keeled boat - 5'-7" draft!) and most in the Chesapeake bought wing keel. Those of us in California and the PNW bought fin keels. In our San Francisco Cup last year a rare (for here) wing keel beat us!
The notion that wing keels are inferior in pointing is just utter nonsense. Sure, it may be "technically true" but it's immeasurable.
Catalina has been very successful with their wing keel designs on their boats. Almost all of them have had that option.
If you have shallow water, buying a fin keel 'cuz you think it won't round up compared to a wing keel is just plain silly.
If you have deep water and just found a wing keel boat that's superb but has a wing keel, buy it, you won't notice any difference unless you're Dennis Conner.
They put extra weight in the wing keel to make it even with a fin keel in moment arm.
Suggest you go here and read the thread:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=169240
I have no direct knowledge on this, so take it with a grain of salt. As I understand things, the Hurth ZF 5, which Catalina installed in the 310, was designed for engines with maximum 25 horsepower mounted in planning hulls. It is much easier to push a planning hull than a displacement hull. I think it safe to say the 310 doesn't plane very much. In addition, the engine mounts could be better. Transmission failure has been an issue on some boats with as little as 600 hours on the engine. Others are doing fine at 2000 hours. There has been a lot of discussion. I have 350 hours on my engine and am crossing my fingers.
Most who have replaced the Hurth ZF 5 have gone with the ZF10 (ZF bought out Hurth some years ago). The ZF 10 bolts in, but it is an inch longer, thus pushing the prop shaft out.
Suggest you also read this:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=153186
Most 310s (not all) have a Universal M25 XPB engine.
Wing vs fin isn't necessarily a good or bad thing but rather different characterize.
I've had 3 fins and now a wing.
Biggest advantage of a wing is that they draw less water. Here in the Great Lakes where levels fell to record lows a few years ago having a 38 ft that draws only 5 feet was a big plus.
Wings won't necessarily round any earlier than a fin if the keel is designed right.
You will find that on production boats a wing keel will tend not to point as high as a fin can.
Another big difference is that with a fin if you run aground in sand / mud the general technique is to heel the boat as much as possible and sail off.
With a wing trying to heel it just buries the winglets deeper in the mud. Generally you'd want to keep the boat as flat as possible as you try to get it off.
I've had 3 fins and now a wing.
Biggest advantage of a wing is that they draw less water. Here in the Great Lakes where levels fell to record lows a few years ago having a 38 ft that draws only 5 feet was a big plus.
Wings won't necessarily round any earlier than a fin if the keel is designed right.
You will find that on production boats a wing keel will tend not to point as high as a fin can.
Another big difference is that with a fin if you run aground in sand / mud the general technique is to heel the boat as much as possible and sail off.
With a wing trying to heel it just buries the winglets deeper in the mud. Generally you'd want to keep the boat as flat as possible as you try to get it off.
On the C310 transmission, there are two problems. The first is the dampener plate. Catalina spec'd an inferior dampener plate that relies on a plastic ribbon. Mine was completely dust in less than the 600 hours on the engine. There is a better option available that has a spring system instead of the ribbon. I took my motor off the mounts and did other work at the same time but the dampener plate can be changed without removing the engine. Here is my blog post on the repair. This post also includes a new shaft, new cutlass bearing and new motor mounts.
The second transmission issue seems to be much more limited. A few have failed but others are still running strong. This might be a maintenance issue. It is still very unclear. I change my transmission fluid annually regardless of how low the hours are. I also send samples of the fluid out to be analyzed to see if there is a pattern of wear. After 5 years I haven't found anything.
On the motor mounts, the issue is that the front mounts are actually too low. You can get a good alignment but the set nuts will be near the top of the bolts. This isn't very stable. The fix is to put a spacer under the mounts. This could be done with G10, stainless steel, or even wood if you prep it right with epoxy. I did the stainless steel spacers. Here is my blog post on it.
Regarding the wing keel comments, the people who complain about sideslip in wing keels most likely don't know how to sail the boat correctly. The C310 is a modern hull design with very good initial stability. As such it has to be sailed more flat footed then the "traditional" hulls like a Cape Dory, Unions, and other long keeled, narrow boats. When you try to sail a boat like this with excessive heal, which is really beyond 20 degrees of heel, you are not getting the appropriate lifting force from the keel. This results in excessive weather helm, side slip and lose of speed. The bottom line is reef early. Here is a post from my blog on sailing modern hulls. There are some links to some really good articles about this, make sure you read the one on the Morgan Out Island.
Personally I prefer the traditional mainsail with full battens. If I could afford it I would add a track and batten cars. With this setup we can put in the first or the second reef point while moving in less than 2 minutes without leaving the cockpit. I may add a ram's horn so I can secure the reef better for the trades before we cross from the Bahamas to the Caribbean but that is up in the air still.
Another thing that could affect this is rig tuning. I thought I had my rig dialed in but I recently got a professional to look at it. It turns out I don't have enough rake. I have about 2 inches but this rig (again, traditional mainsail) should have about 6 inches. The problem is my backstay turnbuckles are buried. So I need to shorten by back stay and retune. I am trying to get that done along with some other improvements to the rig. Once they are done, the rigger estimates I will gain at least another 5 degrees of pointing ability. I am optimistic.
Please don't hesitate to ask any more questions about the C310. You might want to post over in the C310 section, you might get more answers from C310 owners.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
The second transmission issue seems to be much more limited. A few have failed but others are still running strong. This might be a maintenance issue. It is still very unclear. I change my transmission fluid annually regardless of how low the hours are. I also send samples of the fluid out to be analyzed to see if there is a pattern of wear. After 5 years I haven't found anything.
On the motor mounts, the issue is that the front mounts are actually too low. You can get a good alignment but the set nuts will be near the top of the bolts. This isn't very stable. The fix is to put a spacer under the mounts. This could be done with G10, stainless steel, or even wood if you prep it right with epoxy. I did the stainless steel spacers. Here is my blog post on it.
Regarding the wing keel comments, the people who complain about sideslip in wing keels most likely don't know how to sail the boat correctly. The C310 is a modern hull design with very good initial stability. As such it has to be sailed more flat footed then the "traditional" hulls like a Cape Dory, Unions, and other long keeled, narrow boats. When you try to sail a boat like this with excessive heal, which is really beyond 20 degrees of heel, you are not getting the appropriate lifting force from the keel. This results in excessive weather helm, side slip and lose of speed. The bottom line is reef early. Here is a post from my blog on sailing modern hulls. There are some links to some really good articles about this, make sure you read the one on the Morgan Out Island.
Personally I prefer the traditional mainsail with full battens. If I could afford it I would add a track and batten cars. With this setup we can put in the first or the second reef point while moving in less than 2 minutes without leaving the cockpit. I may add a ram's horn so I can secure the reef better for the trades before we cross from the Bahamas to the Caribbean but that is up in the air still.
Another thing that could affect this is rig tuning. I thought I had my rig dialed in but I recently got a professional to look at it. It turns out I don't have enough rake. I have about 2 inches but this rig (again, traditional mainsail) should have about 6 inches. The problem is my backstay turnbuckles are buried. So I need to shorten by back stay and retune. I am trying to get that done along with some other improvements to the rig. Once they are done, the rigger estimates I will gain at least another 5 degrees of pointing ability. I am optimistic.
Please don't hesitate to ask any more questions about the C310. You might want to post over in the C310 section, you might get more answers from C310 owners.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
A very good sailor in a wing keeled boat will always outsail an average sailor on a deep fin.
That being said, a fin keel boat will always be lighter. That means better performance all else being equal. And the fin generates more LIFT. Lift is what stops the boat slide slipping, and that is what makes it point better. Better pointing on like boats is all about sideslip, and that have to be effectively managed no matter WHAT keel you have. We draw 7.25 feet and we can screw up our pointing with a bad heel angle as much a shoal draft 36.7 can.
That being said, a fin keel boat will always be lighter. That means better performance all else being equal. And the fin generates more LIFT. Lift is what stops the boat slide slipping, and that is what makes it point better. Better pointing on like boats is all about sideslip, and that have to be effectively managed no matter WHAT keel you have. We draw 7.25 feet and we can screw up our pointing with a bad heel angle as much a shoal draft 36.7 can.
Jesse: Wouldn't you think the rigging concepts and sailing methods would generally apply to my boat as well? It is the tall mast, wing keel 250. Chief
Jackdaw: Would a broader balanced rudder help for higher pointing with my wing keel? My rudder seems narrow.
Chief
Jackdaw: Would a broader balanced rudder help for higher pointing with my wing keel? My rudder seems narrow.
Chief
Good points Jack. And I hope my post didn't mean to say that a wing will outperform a fin on the same boat.
Interesting question.
A rudder is a foil just like the keel. And IF the boat's sailplan is balanced and the rudder is not cranked to keep the boat straight, the rudder indeed generates lift that helps the boat to windward.
If you have to rudder hard to stem some weather or lee helm, the rudder will stall and generate no lift at all.
Rudders are sized to correctly balance out the boats CLR (center of lateral resistance). Changing that indiscriminately can have strange effects.
Changing a non-balanced for a like-sized balanced blade can be a great idea.
Chief, I was looking at a 250 this weekend and thought the lines looked a lot like a Catalina Morgan deck salon. You might find the exact same performance side with your boat. Keep her flat and see if she does better.
I don't think the rudder being more broad would change that much. I think you would get an unbalanced boat with more lee or weather helm.
Jesse: I do keep her pretty flat and would think the 6" mast adjustment would be right as well. She sure isn't as agile as my 26 Clipper Marine but neither am I! ha
Jackdaw: The reason I asked about the rudder is the PO of my Clipper 26 had put an oversized rudder on her and she would outpoint all sailboats here on Lake Oroville. Are those fine bowed Clippers known for that? They do have a 600 lb swing keel.
Chief
Jackdaw: The reason I asked about the rudder is the PO of my Clipper 26 had put an oversized rudder on her and she would outpoint all sailboats here on Lake Oroville. Are those fine bowed Clippers known for that? They do have a 600 lb swing keel.
Chief
While there is not a lot that would suggest the CM26 would be a witch to windward, that keel would sure help, if it were maintained in good condition. I'd expect it to be about average in that regard to contemporary boats of the same type.
In sailboats in general, I find the biggest difference in a boat's ability to go to windward is the WAY IT IS SAILED. Driver and trim make all the difference.
Thanks Jackdaw, thats a nice indirect compliment! I even repeatedly outpointed a Santana 22 one time and he was amazed. Chief
Well if the shoe fits!
Judging windward performance takes a lot of time and practice. Being able to recognize a few degrees of 'bow-up' or 'bow-down' on another boat is a hard skill to develop, and 95% of the time it is attributable not to weatherly-ness but to oscillating wind shifts on the course. When racing (unless against real PIGS) I always assume that every boat points about the same and the bow up/down is a function of shifts.
Remember waterline length also helps; your boat's speed is a huge function of VMG. I know the current Santana 20 NA champ and you might beat him to windward based on your hull speed if you sail well!