Windward Mark Question...

Davidasailor26 · Sep 29, 2019

My take is that you'll be DSQ. The Racing Rules of Sailing say that to sail the course you must "...pass each mark on the required side...". The rules define mark as "An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side...". The fact that a mark is defined as an object, not a location, to me means that you need to round that physical object wherever it is. I don't see any existing cases about quite this situation in the RRS Case Book, but Case 28 - Racing Rules of Sailing | Case 28 - is pretty close. In that case the issue was a starting mark being bumped and moved, rather than a mark being dragged, but it looks like part of the decision would still apply. In particular, "S could have returned and started as required by rule 28.1. The fact that the starting mark moved does not relieve her of her obligation to start" and "the exact position of a mark frequently and routinely changes as a result of wind, current, waves or it having been touched by a boat, even though its anchor does not move. Such movement is a risk that competitors must accept and does not justify abandoning a race."

Apex · Sep 30, 2019

What did the race committee rule?

shemandr · Sep 30, 2019

It’s a good question. I was in a persuit race when my friend snagged the starting mark with the rudder of his J29. It was light wind and it didn’t significantly impede the rest of the starts.
BTW it is the practice of our RC to tie a second anchor to the mark rode to make the rode hang directly down under the buoy.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 30, 2019

Zobi1 said:
DavidSailor was correct - DSQ, with a "yes, it's unfair."

In the words of a commercial that I fail to recall, "That's just not right" How many other boats did it mess up?

Our race had a reaching mark that drifted downwind in the middle of the race. During the second time around the reaching mark, I was thinking we sure are sailing more downwind than reaching. When we finally rounded it we were nearly abreast the leeward mark and it was a close reach over to it. We thought it was weird and during the picnic afterwards the race committee confirmed what happened. The wind was pretty strong and the anchor must just slide across the sand bottom!

glaufman · Oct 1, 2019

Had that happen at last year's spirit Rider regatta (9/11 memorial race off li)... Our Skipper was the only one who figured out where it was early in the second leg... We ended up beating boats twice our lwl on elapsed time even before corrections

cb32863 · Oct 2, 2019

Scott T-Bird said:
In the words of a commercial that I fail to recall, "That's just not right" How many other boats did it mess up?

Doesn't matter. It's clear in the RRS. You have to sail the course. Marks can drift, wind will shift, it's all part of the game. Pay attention to what is happening on your course.

Scott T-Bird · Oct 2, 2019

cb32863 said:
Doesn't matter. It's clear in the RRS.

I know, I didn't mean it's not correct. I was using it as an expression. Like when you see something disgusting and you say "that's just wrong" or "that's just not right".

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2019

Rule 28 is pretty clear. In order to finish you have to sail the course, and by pure definition that means going around MARKS. Marks are things, not places. They move all the time to a small degree, and occasionally to a larger degree. So if you miss a mark you have not sailed the course, and are DSQ. Full stop.

Now some other factoids:

Is redress an option? No. Rule 62.1 gives 4 possible options for allowing redress, and none fit. 62.1(a) would be the closest, but the dragging is not an improper action of the RC. So no redress.

If a mark is moved, per Rule 34 the RC can replace/move it, but is not obligated to.

If it effected enough boats, the RC is within rights to abandon the race under 32.1(d) 'because a mark is missing or out of position'. But this is totally their call. If done, an abandoned race can be re-started.

GPS waypoints CAN be used on a course, but it requires changes to the SIs, in particular rule 28. The ISAF suggests wording like the following:

https://yachtscoring.com/event_documents/6253/AppendixWPRulesforRacingAroundWaypoints.pdf

shemandr · Oct 2, 2019

I had forgotten an Off Soundings race in which the mark drifted out of sight from the coordinates that were published for where the mark is. This may change the answer. If the location of the mark is in the SI’s, and the mark isn’t there, what is the competitor to do? In that race the first boats to the location couldn’t even see the mark. The race was thrown out. But, does publishing the mark location change the answer?

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2019

shemandr said:
I had forgotten an Off Soundings race in which the mark drifted out of sight from the coordinates that were published for where the mark is. This may change the answer. If the location of the mark is in the SI’s, and the mark isn’t there, what is the competitor to do? In that race the first boats to the location couldn’t even see the mark. The race was thrown out. But, does publishing the mark location change the answer?

No.

As long as it exists, a physical mark ALWAYS prevails. Well written SIs will spell that out. Normally they will say something like: 'For convenience, the mark will be in the vicinity of xxxN yyyW'. But a PC will always rule that way.

champ382 · Oct 11, 2019

Your only recourse is to round the mark(wherever it is) and ask for redress. If other boats had already rounded he mark, every boat after is affected. The RC's options are to: 1) refuse your request(basically saying, you're screwed), 2) awarding your redress and awarding time(at their discretion), or 3) Abandoning the race(not likely). Your result depends upon 1)your evidence, and 2) how many other boats filed for redress.
Now, was the mark dragged further away or closer to the next mark? I know it sounds shady, but I assume your concern is that you'd have to sail further. What if the movement of the mark made your course shorter?

Jackdaw · Oct 11, 2019

champ382 said:
Your only recourse is to round the mark(wherever it is) and ask for redress. If other boats had already rounded he mark, every boat after is affected. The RC's options are to: 1) refuse your request(basically saying, you're screwed), 2) awarding your redress and awarding time(at their discretion), or 3) Abandoning the race(not likely). Your result depends upon 1)your evidence, and 2) how many other boats filed for redress.
Now, was the mark dragged further away or closer to the next mark? I know it sounds shady, but I assume your concern is that you'd have to sail further. What if the movement of the mark made your course shorter?

Sorry but you would be wasting your time. Please re-read this, and tell me how you think we dress with a factor in any of the four situations listed.

http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sub_144-%5B1342%5D.pdf

champ382 · Oct 11, 2019

62.d. The boat that has moved the mark has violated rule 31. The RC must adhere to rule 34.

34. MARK MISSING

If a mark is missing or out of position, the race committee shall, if possible,

replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of similar appearance, or
substitute an object displaying flag
31. TOUCHING A MARK

While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

If the RC has not adhered to rule 34, what do they do?

champ382 · Oct 11, 2019

Perhaps was unclear. The first step is to protest the boat that moved the mark. They SHOULD be Dq'd. That brings into play rule 34. If the RC did not adhere to rule 34, 62.d come into play.
This is not new. I've seen it happen(once, 20 years ago). RRS has been challenged enough that MOST situations have been addressed.

BTW, how's the 105 fleet? I have a relative that lives on the lake. Whenever I'm I annoy them by taking their boat to watch the races.

Davidasailor26 · Oct 11, 2019

champ382 said:
The first step is to protest the boat that moved the mark. They SHOULD be Dq'd.

On what grounds should they be disqualified? They did touch the mark, so they need to do a turn. But unless they also “gained a significant advantage in the race or series” I don’t see any rule requiring a more severe penalty. Given that they probably lost a whole lot of time getting untangled I doubt they gained any significant advantage.

champ382 · Oct 11, 2019

That comes back to the question of whether they moved the mark away from or toward the next mark. I don't think this question would come up if he shortened the course, so I assume he lengthened it. If the offending boat didn't perform his turn, he's open to protest. If he did perform his turn, the mark was still moved and RC has to address that via rule 34. The prevailing rule is rule 34. I really doesn't matter why the mark moved, just that it had. It affects every boat that rounds after it was moved. The RC is free to interpret that as they like(and they will). If this was the second to last boat to round and he was the last, he's probably out of luck. If this was the first boat to round it affected the rest of the fleet and the RC would be remiss if they didn't address it. If your serving as RC in your club and you don't address this, how will your life at the club be affected? You race with these same people every week. My guess is that they'd address it(possibly with yelling and alcohol)

Davidasailor26 · Oct 11, 2019

champ382 said:
That comes back to the question of whether they moved the mark away from or toward the next mark. I don't think this question would come up if he shortened the course, so I assume he lengthened it. If the offending boat didn't perform his turn, he's open to protest. If he did perform his turn, the mark was still moved and RC has to address that via rule 34. The prevailing rule is rule 34. I really doesn't matter why the mark moved, just that it had. It affects every boat that rounds after it was moved. The RC is free to interpret that as they like(and they will). If this was the second to last boat to round and he was the last, he's probably out of luck. If this was the first boat to round it affected the rest of the fleet and the RC would be remiss if they didn't address it. If your serving as RC in your club and you don't address this, how will your life at the club be affected? You race with these same people every week. My guess is that they'd address it(possibly with yelling and alcohol)

Depends on the circumstances surrounding the RC. In our club’s evening races the RC starts the races from the boat, then goes to the dock to finish the races from there. They wouldn’t really have any means to go out and replace the mark or place a temporary mark. I’d expect they would say, consistent with rule 34, that it was not possible to fix the moved mark, so all boats rounding after that time are out of luck. And yes, yelling and alcohol may also be involved.

Jackdaw · Oct 18, 2019

champ382 said:
That comes back to the question of whether they moved the mark away from or toward the next mark. I don't think this question would come up if he shortened the course, so I assume he lengthened it. If the offending boat didn't perform his turn, he's open to protest. If he did perform his turn, the mark was still moved and RC has to address that via rule 34. The prevailing rule is rule 34. I really doesn't matter why the mark moved, just that it had. It affects every boat that rounds after it was moved. The RC is free to interpret that as they like(and they will). If this was the second to last boat to round and he was the last, he's probably out of luck. If this was the first boat to round it affected the rest of the fleet and the RC would be remiss if they didn't address it. If your serving as RC in your club and you don't address this, how will your life at the club be affected? You race with these same people every week. My guess is that they'd address it(possibly with yelling and alcohol)

The RC is not obligated to move any mark back to its original position (if that was ever possible anyway), nor can the PC give redress for a mark that has been moved by a boat. That action is not the fault of the RC, so no redress can be given. Even if possible, it probably impossible for it to be back in place for every boat. Of course most will try if possible, but moving a mark during a race is a very difficult thing to do.

Also, if a boat that touches (or drags) a mark, it can always exonerate itself by taking its turns. There are only two rare exceptions to that:

1) if the boat somehow gained an unfair advantage, they must retire, or be DSQed under protest

2) if the action was done in a way that contravened the RRS ‘fair sailing’ rule, that is protestable..