Window trim/beading

Apr 7, 2006
103
We are almost at the point of rebedding new lexan windows/ports in the cabin trunk.

We had what appeared to be strips of lead as molding/trim before. I think originally they were made of mahogany. With the tight curve I'm wondering how that will go. I've rigged steam boxes before for bending oak frames but I don't think the old mahogany I have will be pliable after steaming/boiling. Would laminating thin strips work? Any one tried this yet or have any ideas?

Thanks, Jon
 
Jun 28, 2004
50
Port molding

On Whisper the molding is mahogany, and there are seven to eight pieces per port - straight sides and curved corners. The corner pieces are cut with the grain at an angle to the shape of the piece, but minimizing the misalignment of the grain with the total piece. I've had new pieces made for one port - a small one in the forward cabin, and would have new ones made again if I were replacing the ports (which I might yet get to this year).

Incidentally, the molding stands out from the cabinside about 3/16" around each port and is attached to the cabin side with bronze brads.

Rick
Whisper 949-LL
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I've pulled all the ports and trim pieces.

The corners, as Rick says are cut. The grain runs at 45 degrees to the horizontal and veritical side pieces. Similar to how grain would be oriented for a ships knee.

While the large ports have two large corner pieces, the smaller have just enough to turn the corner. If you look closely, you can see the pieces.


They looked to be bandsawn and then shaped with the bead shape that stands proud. I think they add alot of depth and character to the ports. If you're using Lexan though, the thickness would likely make the wood trim unsuitable.

I'd like to hear what you use for Lexan Jon (thickness) and what others have used. I stayed with the plate glass(for now). In rebedding all the ports I was able to pull all of the mahogany trim pieces (mine were installed with bronze screws, # 4) carefully with a heat gun and putty knife.

Now 6 years later, I may pull the pieces next year and rebed, I'll be stripping cabin sides. I expect to set up to cut the corner trim pieces with my bandsaw and then finish with a router (some will need replacing).

 

jsmall

.
Mar 25, 2005
41
Dufour 31 Seaford VA.
I have wondered if we could have bronze window surrounds made that were the same size as the wooden ones. Would they be too thin? Too expensive?
Jimmy
949L
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I've thought the same thing Jimmy.

Yet after a pretty good run of bedding and no leaks, I'm thinking the wood trim isn't so bad afterall.

My last port rebedding, I used Boat life in the mahogany color. I may stick with it again. The only drawback is I got a couple of weeps in really nasty weather last year. I would like the seal to last longer.

On the other hand, the Boatlife worked well with the wood, dried overnight, easy to clean up etc. and takes varnish easily.

Another problem with the wood trim is the thickness allowable. I love these ports so much on this boat for livability on the water, I want a good glazing so plate glass is wonderful. Of course the size makes them vulnerable but I've pretty much resolved this knowing what kind of saliing I do.

But all this aside, I've come to appreciate the wood trim. I think replacement should be straight forward(if I'm wrong, I could change my tune) and rebedding should be done the same time the cabin sides need wooding and revarnishing. I suspect this will be in the 7 to 10 year range. Some areas, like the forward cabin side, last less.

Also, as I enjoy this boat year after year, I'm inclined to keep it stock as much as I can. It's remained mostly that way so far, it's one of the lucky ones in that respect.
 
Apr 7, 2006
103
We are using 1/4" lexan- there was the same thickness but I think just plexiglass complete with crazing and cloudy finish. I heard a rumor Cindy is getting me a band saw for my birthday next week so I guess I'll dive into wood trim.
After the lexan is in place there should be about 3/8" left for the trim to fasten to the trunk. I think that should be enough. Boatlife sounds great- I'm not sure if that is ok with lexan or not- I know there are some caulks that have an ugly reaction with it.

Also found between the 2 D windows on the stb a small amount of rot- I think where the tenon is. In fact it looks like the seam is totally open there so I think I'll scarf in a new piece with west system. I have a feeling there might be a bronze 3/8" bolt there vertically through the trunk. At first I thought a router would work to clean out a V but I can just imagine what damage that would do if it hit the bolt and jumped around!
 
Feb 1, 2006
41
There absolutely are drifts within the thickness of your house sides. I saw them on the house front when my wife and I looked at Essay when she was Gypsea. You loose thickness of material over time and refinishing so portions of Gypsea's showed.

There are drifts within the thickness of our North East 38's coamings which show as a vertical stripe of discolored wood or varnish if the drift gets wet through its bung. You might be able to discern where yours are.

A major issue with plastic for use in ports is the much greater coefficient of expansion of the plastic. Thus the sealant has to be capable of much more movement.

A related problem that us architects know about but us boaties do not is that the movement in sealant is taken up in the thickness of the sealant. On buildings, we architects try to design the correct width and depth of sealant in accordance with the expected movement. For instance, glazing is spaced away from frames to create the required shape of the sealant gasket. You'll use up more of your rabbet when you provide rubber spacers which set the thickness of the sealant, and your new trim will be shallower.

An even more serious problem, for which you should consult with the sealant manufacturers, is which type sealant is appropriate. 5200 is not, some of the silicones are, some of the polysulphides are. And the wood will absorb the components of some sealants, too.

I used 5200 between Acrylic and fiberglass on a Morgan 27 and the seal failed over the first summer; when I grumped to 3M, they handed me a tube of their silicone. I used silicone and EPDM spacers between tempered glass and teak in my new companionway boards and so far so good after a year. I used paintable silicone and EPDM spacers between tempered glass and my epoxy-coated and painted cedar shower door, so far so good. I used punchings of a sample of EPDM made for roofing.

The wood house and beaded wood glazing stops on a Challenger are gorgeous! Take the time to make them right. I made a jig to hold a router to mill small mouldings, you might be able to conjure one up for your ovals. I think that 1/4" Lexan is not stiff enough for the size of the light in a Challengers' large ports. I don't much like the 1/4" tempered glass in our NE 38's ports which are about the same size.

I cleaned out cracks in the NE 38's coamings using a metal cutting hacksaw blade and filled the resulting fairly narrow stripe with epoxy. It doesn't look too bad. I've mixed epoxy with matching sanding dust for filler and that works better (it comes out a bit dark).
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
You can use a router Jon.

I have in that very area. If fact I may have done both sides and if you look very closely(the camera hides alot) you may see a 1/2" patch between the double D's and the forward port.

I try not to go so wide but due to grain and some obvious torture of the wood from expansion/ contraction of a large void next to a thin solid piece of grain; going the wrong way (this area is a real test of wood!), I had to remove several splits and maybe a little rot.

The trick of course is to set the bit, not too deep. I recall this little dutchmen patches to be more than 1/4" thick, but not quite 3/8" (I missed the drift but took several depth passes against a guide I made of a piece of mdo). If needed, the inside can recieve the same treatment but I think I was able to do that face with a "feather" of mahogany.

I prefer to use these feathers for repairs. Nothing more than 1/8, 1/16 or even thinner strips I rip out on the band saw. These are fit with the aid of a block plane to put a bevel on the inserted edge. Once dry fit, epoxy is brused well into the joint and onto the feather. (tape both sides) Push in, tap till tight. After they dry, they easily plane/sand flush and dissappear. I think this is the way they repair fine musical instruments.

I see this stuff done all the time at Rockport Marine down the street. This is the downside of wooden cabins of all makes. However, the fix is fairly easy. They too as Doug mentions will kerf some areas and if thin enough, use darkened expoxy. But if the ploughed or kerfed area is any larger, they go with wood. Believe it or not, I've seen the cabin to deck joint epoxied tight on some fine boats. These guys are beyond many rules of wood joinery and are combining the best of both worlds and creating their own craft.

But back to that tortured area of a wide plank with a two holes in it, one quite large, the drift holds things together, not the wood of course. So after nearly 50 years, the area is as stable as it will get.
I sense there is a relief in the wood when this patch is applied and things can relax a bit. Alittle like loosening your belt. And of course it's solid and dry now. These patches seem to disappear especially after some time in the sun. Look closely at fine older wooden boats, they're there.

Take some pictures if you set up for cutting the trim, I'd be interested for doing it myself in the future. I wonder if anyone has the Alden detail plan on the port trim?

A band saw is one nice tool. I think the pieces could be free hand sawn acurately. I believe there is a bevel on exterior surface (not the interior bedding surface which is flat) and then a bead shaped to the outer edge. This will give a tiny window sill effect and should help drain water away from the glass and leave no pool against it.

The inside corners of the smaller ports are quite strong due to the grain running mostly parallel through the 90 degree radius. It is the very ends that are the most fragile and prone to breaking as the 45 degree grain is short here. Careful drilling is in order and careful countersinking and fastening.

I actually broke a couple in this area and simply epoxied the little pieces back together.

The larger D ports have similar "elbows" at the inside corners. The outer pieces of the D are two pieces as well butting at the center of the outer D.

And the pieces, especially the larger D, will flex a bit and fair themselves into the recess. Any small void was filled with the Boatlife I used and disppeared under varnish.
 
Apr 7, 2006
103
I like the feather idea. After cleaning things out the rot is actually hidden in the rabbit so it could be filled easily. The crack that is showing was filled with a thin piece of mahogany that just loosened with time- I think I should be able to fitt another one in. The sides aren't exactly parallel so I might try and dress them up a bit. On the inside there is some sort of white epoxy/bondo but that's under the interior paint. In the cabin I can see the end of the through bolt-appears to be 1/4".

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Apr 7, 2006
103
Sorry about the extra web address for free image hosting- got all fouled up trying to post the pic!! You can see the little bit of rot at the forward end of the crack.
 
Feb 1, 2006
41
Wern't the Challengers' house sides and trim originally varnished inside? It would only quadruple or quintuple your work to wood those solids. Wooding the plywood bulkheads might be way too much work since the veneer is likely to be too thin to survive much sanding and cleaning. And reveneering in place would be pretty finnicky. I've got that kind of miserable work in a few places in Quetzal but happily she has only her original finish. I'm hoping to be able to relaminate the existing veneer and refinish.

I've taken to using a heatgun to wood Quetzal's brightwork but care must be taken since the polyester can be damaged, too. What I'd really like is enough capacity in a portable genset or inverter to be able to run the heatgun while on a mooring, but I can go to alot of trouble taking the boat to the dock and save the $1200!

I have feathered the cracks in my harpsichord soundboard but at an eighth inch or less thickness it was pretty easy to clean up the crack with a knife. I have a rot pocket on the inside face of a toe rail, only about 1 1/2" long by 1/8" wide; I hope my formica trimming router's bit will center on the rot while riding on the deck.

Working out a house side I suppose the problem to be solved is how to guide the router or saw so that simple perfection is achieved. Clamp a guide through the port openings?
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I'm searching for the man who built this trim.

I think I know who he is at Rockport Marine (one of their lead craftsmen from England) and will wait for a lull to ask him how he reproduced the trim pieces on the boat that is cared for at RM. Looking at these, I realized how the years of reckless sanding and other abrasions, have taken much of the shape out of the trim around my ports. As I plan to rebed the ports this winter, I'll reproduce the trim.
 

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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Here's a close up.

Very clean crisp work.Of note, it looks like the pieces were tacked in place with brads instead of screws. This makes me think the idea is sacrificial for the next bedding. I wonder what the compound is to give them this confidence? What do you think?

Working on my bandsaw the other day, I decided I'd try a quick corner free hand.
 

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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
If the pieces were larger, obviously a template and router..

would allow a perfect corner, after corner, after corner. A special bit would be needed that would trim the inner face with a bevel of around 10 degrees or so. Tiny screws through a piece of lexan on the bottom?

But these pieces may be too small to fasten even from the back. My first attempt was simply to swing the arc with a compass inside and out. (Simply like a ships knee with the grain running from end to end) Of course this would be established by a pattern marked and cut from the port openings once the glass is removed. I expect they would all be the same of course.

On the band saw, it's not difficult to follow the lines and rough out the piece. From there, a disk sander on the outer curve is easy enough to bring the shape to the finish line. But what about the insde radius bevel?

With a 2" drum in my ancient drill press, I set the table at 10 degrees. Of course the exact bevel has to be applied to the exaxt tangent point. This simply means, I had to shape the inner bevel by eye. Riding the little piece on the high side of the table/drum, I slowly rotated the piece to make contact at the tangent that would be 90 degrees from the radius(something like that) It's easier than it sounds.

Then, I simply hand sanded a quick bead on this scrap of pine.

If there is no simple way to template, I think these would be fairly easy to reproduce. Of course the staights are simply ripped, beveld and a bead shape applied.
 

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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I'm mid stream in replacing this window trim and rebedding my glass. It was time to wood the cabin sides after 10 years. The varnish was failing and a couple of the large ports were weeping.

With a heat gun, I tried removing the trim I was able to pull and replace 10 years ago. But with the idea to replace it this time, I gave up trying to save it. Truth is, the Life Caulk I used to bed the ports 10 years ago was still well stuck. The last time, it may have been Dolphinite or another less adhesive bedding compound. Or perhaps, it was just so badly shot.

With heat it loosens, eventually, but it occurred to me that using Life Caulk again means the trim will be destroyed next time it's pulled. So I've done quite a bit of research on bedding compounds and experience with this sort of port set up.

Another concern, the trim board that covers the joint between the cabin and deck was not sealing very well. I'm afraid back then I didn't use enough Life Caulk to fully fill the joint. I know now, you need a good squeeze out all the way around for the compound to work.

At this point, I've begun cutting the port trim. I'll post photos of some details soon. Jon (Southport) has given me some good info. He did a nice job on his ports. Here's some things I've found along the way,...

Woodenboat Forum has been the most helpful with bedding compounds. Several opinions but many similarities. Everybody has their favorite compounds but it's universal that application is the most important part. Sealing all surfaces prior to applying the compound is another unanimous must from those with experience I've talked to. The ability of raw wood to pull oils out of the compound and dry the material will shorten the life.

Rockport Marine in town has given me the same info. Our big ports are the most problematic. Different rates of expansion and contraction work the seal. All in all, I'll likely go with LifeCaulk again. Life Seal is tempting as it has some silicon. Silicon may be more flexible with our large ports. Rockport Marine used Life Caulk on the beautifully done ports above and said to be careful taping off for silicon so as not to make varnishing a problem. There's several ways to do anything right,....They also used small brads to hold them in. I'm beginning to think I'll do the same.

At this point, the cabin is wooded and one diluted sealer coat of varnish has been applied. I'll put on a couple more, being careful to seal the rabbit well that will hold the glass.

The glass; I took my old glass to a local real glass store I've gotten to know quite well. After some time, Nelson spotted the tiny dimples on one end of each port. These were formed by the tongs used to pull the plate glass out of the ovens when it was heat tempered. I think it's all original. I was thinking of replacing it as it has some light scratches around the edges from sandpaper over the years. Here's the deal, new laminated glass for all the openings would run about 300.00. It's nice and I was tempted, the price not being too bad. But laminated glass isn't any stronger than plate glass, in fact, because it's two pieces, it's not as strong as a single sheet. It's used a lot in boats around here. If it is broken, it holds together and will keep some water out if it's not punched out.

Tempered glass is 4 to 5 times stronger than regular plate research turned up. I was convinced when Nelson took a hammer to a piece of tempered and had to wail the hell out of it on the edge before it broke. It also broke into pebble like pieces. Tempered glass would run at least twice the cost of laminated. I decided the minor scratches don't look that bad.

And that brings me to the danger of the big ports. Knowing more about the strength of tempered glass, I'm more confident in the ports. But even with tempered glass, they could be stove in. My boat like many was fitted with brass threaded inserts for storm shutters for this very problem.

In wooding the cabin, some were looking a little rough. I've never used them with our coastal sailing. When I found a loose one, I was surprised to see it was only 1/2" deeply set into the cabin. Still, the little buggers were quite strong as I needed an easy out and a lot of pounding to get them free. I decided, for now, I'll drill those 3/8" ragged holes to 1/2" and plug them with wood plugs and varnish. If in the future if I think I need the shutters, I'll install the next size up threaded insert.

I built two jigs for the window openings. On my boat, the two big D windows are not symmetrical fore and aft. A couple pieces of dry pine battened together and clamped through holes to the cabin face, I traced the outer bedding surface of the rabbet. With this in my shop (warm, no ladders to climb) I used the jig to trace the outer line of the corner trims. Once I cut one of those out, I used a pencil in a compass to draw the inner cut line, 3/8" wide, and another line 1/4". After cutting the outer line, with a sanding drum in the drill press, and the table set to 10 degrees, I sanded to the inner 1/4" line which gave me 3/8" at the bottom. Essentially, I reproduced the same bevel I cut into the straight pieces which are 3/4" wide, 3/8" deep on the inside, beveled down to 1/4" on the outside. That's about what I found on my old port trims.

After fitting the corners, I eased a bead onto the edge mostly with coarse sand paper. On the straights, I used a block plane and sand paper to get roughly the same profile. I didn't take too much off thinking it will be easy to fair them into each other and put the final shape on with a little sanding after the bedding compound dries.

This first one took about 2 hours. The small radius corners are easy so I expect the small ports to go quickly.

Quickly is a relative term. Today, my boat makes me feel like a museum currator who spent the day boxing. My hands hurt! But there it is, like a jigsaw puzzle, the parts of my ports.
 

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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
6 tubes of Lifecaulk later, they're finally in.

In a few weeks, once I've had time to clean it up and get some varnish on, I think they'll look pretty good.
 

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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I've been busy with other projects so have just gotten to varnishing the cabinsides.

The new trim is a little deeper and heftier section than I removed but I really don't know how much has changed over the years. Also, I believe from previous holes, that the set of trim I removed, was the second set on the boat.

I still need about 4 coats of varnish to protect the wood but I think it looks pretty good so far.
 

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Apr 7, 2006
103
NICE!!!

I've started makin g a spinnakerr pole. Got plans from Niels, 3 2x6-14's from the local lumber yard (last winter so they've been drying out), and from my better half bronze end fittings for xmas!

Didn't realize it was hollow so cheated and cut out the center of the middle plank, and chiseled out the corresponding outer planks. Not the birds mouth but lightens up the pole. West system all that together and tapered it with a power plane to 4 sides. I was flumuxed as to how to make an octogon out of a tapered piece but googled and found how to make a "spar gauge". Awesome little gizmo that will draw pencil lines on all four sides to show how far to plane each corner. All sorts of geometry involved but I bet the first shipwright just made one- or actually did it all by eye with a spokeshave!!

Any way no down to sanding- will try and post pix!!!

Jon