Wind speed/direction gauges...do you use them?

[Kings Gambit]

Close-hauled was presented as the end of the continuum of the POS where a hard definition was possible [i.e., sailing as close to the wind as possible]. Ultimately, if you're spinnaker reaching [& racing] toward a mark, you're going to be driving the boat as close to the wind as necessary [or possible] with your sails trimmed to allow it. I have friends who do land sailing on very fast rigs. Of course, the [apparent] wind is nearly always forward of the beam regardless of the true wind direction. Language and text evolve to describe and explain what is actually experienced. When you're in a fast boat with the [apparent] wind nearly always forward of the beam you need another reference point. If POS is going to be defined by the boat's heading relative to the true wind, then at your "relativistic" speeds there is almost no definable relationship between the POS and sail trim [e.g., going "down wind" with sails sheeted in tight]. Sail trim has to be a function of the apparent wind only [which of course it always is] but then you cannot [should not] use POS to illustrate what the sail trim should be a priori.

 

[Joe]

If we say that the POS of the boat is beam reaching (True wind abeam), but the sails are sheeted in hard (presumably) and with the apparent wind in your face looking forward, then the basic POS instructional diagram we've been discussing which also shows (defines) sail trim as a function of POS ultimately breaks down.

I did not wish to include sail trim per se as another (complex) variable into this discussion, but here we are, unavoidably. What you're saying is that a vessel can be close-hauled (= having the sails set for sailing as nearly against the wind as the vessel will go) (one POS) while on a beam reach (a different POS). Is that it? Remember, "the wind" is the True Wind by your and Joe's interpretation.

It is not confusing if you explain it the correct way from the beginning. What's confusing is your student finding out later when he needs to know what his boat's tacking angle is.

Your curriculum defines the Point of Sail with a device that is influenced by additional variables. In the class room, you only show wind direction(true) and boat direction (course). When you go out on the water, two other variables are added to the device.. true wind speed and boat speed. Does it make sense that that device will now read differently than in the class room? Then comes the discussion on apparent vs true wind ... So rather than befuddling the student by backtracking to explain what a POS really is... it's just easier to change the definition.

An even graver mistake is asking the student to define the point of sail by observing sail trim only.... sure it makes it simpler to learn... but it doesn't explain the big picture.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I've been thinking about a new book title: Close-hauled on a beam reach: a modern manual of sail trim for beginner to advanced sailors

I wonder what kind of reviews it will get.

 

[Joe]

Close-hauled was presented as the end of the continuum of the POS where a hard definition was possible [i.e., sailing as close to the wind as possible]. Ultimately, if you're spinnaker reaching [& racing] toward a mark, you're going to be driving the boat as close to the wind as necessary [or possible] with your sails trimmed to allow it. I have friends who do land sailing on very fast rigs. Of course, the [apparent] wind is nearly always forward of the beam regardless of the true wind direction. Language and text evolve to describe and explain what is actually experienced. When you're in a fast boat with the [apparent] wind nearly always forward of the beam you need another reference point. If POS is going to be defined by the boat's heading relative to the true wind, then at your "relativistic" speeds there is almost no definable relationship between the POS and sail trim [e.g., going "down wind" with sails sheeted in tight]. Sail trim has to be a function of the apparent wind only [which of course it always is] but then you cannot [should not] use POS to illustrate what the sail trim should be a priori.

The Point of Sail diagram is NOT used as a trim guide. It illustrates initial sail settings relative to the boat's orientation to the wind. It is not defined by the trim of the sails per se.

Catamarans and ice boats very often race on triangular courses, each leg being a reach, rather than beating and running, because they go super slow when closehauled. Their fastest POS is a broad reach.. where they can exceed true wind speed. An apparent wind indicator is useless in defining a point of sail with these types of speedsters.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I've been thinking about a new book title: Close-hauled on a beam reach: a modern manual of sail trim for beginner to advanced sailors

I wonder what kind of reviews it will get.

Change that: Close-hauled on a beam reach: an oxymornonic guide to sail trim for beginner to advanced sailors

 

[Meriachee]

Hey! I went and got that book. There's a picture of my boat doing 37kts with the Bimini deployed. I better get some royalties.

 

[charliegrau]

The windex is good enough if you can see it. You might want to add tell tales to shrouds or sails. Sailing is all by apparent wind. If you want true wind out of curiosity or for some planning purpose you will need to calculate it with input from a speed sensor and apparent wind sensor. Still prone to error because most speed sensors use speed through the water which can be affected by currents...i.e., if you have a 2knot current on the nose your actual speed over ground will be 2kts less than your speed through the water. True wind calculation would require speed over ground.
Go sailing.

 

[Doc_holiday]

If you get enough barnacles on the bottom of the boat, your true wind and apparent wind will be pretty much the same thing

 

[Joe]

The windex is good enough if you can see it. You might want to add tell tales to shrouds or sails. Sailing is all by apparent wind. If you want true wind out of curiosity or for some planning purpose you will need to calculate it with input from a speed sensor and apparent wind sensor. Still prone to error because most speed sensors use speed through the water which can be affected by currents...i.e., if you have a 2knot current on the nose your actual speed over ground will be 2kts less than your speed through the water. True wind calculation would require speed over ground.
Go sailing.

Not understanding it doesn't make it irrelevant. True wind isn't about trimming sails.... apparent wind is used for that.... but navigation and maximum performance is ALL about true wind. Why do you think cruisers plan their passages based on prevailing true wind directions? How do you sail out of a crowded anchorage without knowing which way the wind blows?

As I said before... you can easily determine true wind direction by averaging your boat's compass course for each close hauled tack. You don't need a calculator for that. No dinghy sailors have a calculator on hand, wouldn't know what formula to use anyway. That's how a tactical compass works... by making it easy to see the heading changes on opposite tacks so you know when the true wind shifts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFTwDYDlYzc Electronic models such as Tack Tick... when functioning as a wind shift indicator.use the same principle only they memorize the average headings on each tack to show digitally show changes in true wind direction.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGTdl-qxubg&feature=player_embedded#t=62

 

[charliegrau]

Joe, sounds we agree that the windex is sufficient instrumentation to go sailing. As you say - the dinghy sailors don't have calculators.

Also, it sounds like we agree that true wind considerations are good for planning purposes, but sail trimming is done to the apparent wind...however, that - and the rest of your discussion seems off topic to me. Suggest you start your own thread. I would also suggest you take a less confrontational approach.

 

[Jackdaw]

Joe, sounds we agree that the windex is sufficient instrumentation to go sailing. As you say - the dinghy sailors don't have calculators.

Also, it sounds like we agree that true wind considerations are good for planning purposes, but sail trimming is done to the apparent wind...however, that - and the rest of your discussion seems off topic to me. Suggest you start your own thread. I would also suggest you take a less confrontational approach.

Well, Joe might have his individual 'style', but he's absolutely right. This thread is about wind/speed direction instruments, and EVERY high performance sailor in the world has theirs set all the time to TRUE wind. Tactically and strategically, it's the only game in town. Apperent is what you trim to, but you sail in true wind. Instruments set to apparent are just electronic windexes, and not very good ones at that.

 

[Gunni]

The problem is, you don't often get True wind with the older wind instrument systems, you get Apparent wind V02 because these goofy paddle wheel speed transducers are ridiculously inaccurate, prone to fouling and totally useless when you are fighting an opposing tidal ebb, or ocean current. Find a system that uses the GPS calculated ground speed and you will get accurate True wind speed. There are third-party nav computers that translate NEMA2000 GPS speed to the Seatalk input necessary to work around the raymarine transducer-based speed input. They are reported to work well and produce accurate True windspeed.

 

[Joe]

Joe, sounds we agree that the windex is sufficient instrumentation to go sailing. As you say - the dinghy sailors don't have calculators.

Also, it sounds like we agree that true wind considerations are good for planning purposes, but sail trimming is done to the apparent wind...however, that - and the rest of your discussion seems off topic to me. Suggest you start your own thread. I would also suggest you take a less confrontational approach.

I disagree, non confrontationally, if you will. This discussion is 5 pages long... it began because someone claimed points of sail were determined by apparent wind. Another person said you needed instruments to determine true wind direction.... these statements are untrue and cannot go unchallenged.. or we will look like a bunch of novices to the rest of the sailing world.

Knowing the difference between true and apparent wind, and how it functions in sailing is fundamental. I ask you to look past my manner and examine the message.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Knowing the difference between true and apparent wind, and how it functions in sailing is fundamental. I ask you to look past my manner and examine the message.

I wish this wind would blow itself out.

 

[Joe]

I wish this wind would blow itself out.

You're dreaming if you think that wishing me away would allow the world of sailing to shape itself into your image..

 

[dickerson guy]

Absolutely

As a Captain who has logged thousands of off shore miles this summer alone wind direction indicators are very much appreciated when sailing at night. Not really necessary during the day but a real smart investment at night especially when sailing to windward in a blow. You can really drive the lifts thus reducing your passage times and keeping the boat trimmed. I highly recommend them. Of course no electronics are required to go sail anywhere but modern technology does have its advantages.

 

[charliegrau]

Joe, I disagree with you about apparent vs true wind and points of sail...so I took the liberty of starting a new post on Don Guillette's forum so we can quit hijacking this thread.

 

[Jackdaw]

As a Captain who has logged thousands of off shore miles this summer alone wind direction indicators are very much appreciated when sailing at night. Not really necessary during the day but a real smart investment at night especially when sailing to windward in a blow. You can really drive the lifts thus reducing your passage times and keeping the boat trimmed. I highly recommend them. Of course no electronics are required to go sail anywhere but modern technology does have its advantages.

I really don't understand how people say they can sail (drive) well to windward by watching their windex or wind instruments. When driving to windward you should be watching only two things; your tell-tails and your compass.

Your wind instruments will not tell you if you are getting lifted or knocked. Only your compass can do that. And it's only going to tell you that if you are close hauled, and only your tell-tails will tell you that.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I really don't understand how people say they can sail (drive) well to windward by watching their windex or wind instruments. When driving to windward you should be watching only two things; your tell-tails and your compass.

Your wind instruments will not tell you if you are getting lifted or knocked. Only your compass can do that. And it's only going to tell you that if you are close hauled, and only your tell-tails will tell you that.

I must be missing something because I can always tell when I'm lifted or knocked by watching the wind instrument. I trim sails according to the tell-tales, but the wind instrument seems to provide more useful information when set to apparent wind than true wind.

When I'm lifted the apparent wind shifts aft and I can see it on the wind instrument instantly. When I'm knocked the opposite happens. When a puff increases wind speed, the apparent wind shifts aft and gives me a lift, which I can see instantly. In a lull, apparent moves forward so I can tell easily when I'm going to get knocked as a result.

In fact, if I have it set to true wind, I wouldn't get any indication that an increase in wind strength is giving me a lift or a lull is knocking me, like I can see instantly when set to apparent wind. I find the wind instrument to be as accurate as anything else so why the knocks on using it?

Like everybody says, trim according to the telltales, so how is true wind any more useful than apparent wind? In fact, due to the response that is instantly visible when the wind speed increases or decreases, how is apparent wind angle not more useful than true wind angle?

So what am I missing? Besides, with the wind shifts we see inland, a true wind heading is virtually meaningless so there is no reason to be watching the compass.

 

[Jackdaw]

I must be missing something because I can always tell when I'm lifted or knocked by watching the wind instrument. I trim sails according to the tell-tales, but the wind instrument seems to provide more useful information when set to apparent wind than true wind.

When I'm lifted the apparent wind shifts aft and I can see it on the wind instrument instantly. When I'm knocked the opposite happens. When a puff increases wind speed, the apparent wind shifts aft and gives me a lift, which I can see instantly. In a lull, apparent moves forward so I can tell easily when I'm going to get knocked as a result.

In fact, if I have it set to true wind, I wouldn't get any indication that an increase in wind strength is giving me a lift or a lull is knocking me, like I can see instantly when set to apparent wind. I find the wind instrument to be as accurate as anything else so why the knocks on using it?

Like everybody says, trim according to the telltales, so how is true wind any more useful than apparent wind? In fact, due to the response that is instantly visible when the wind speed increases or decreases, how is apparent wind angle not more useful than true wind angle?

So what am I missing? Besides, with the wind shifts we see inland, a true wind heading is virtually meaningless so there is no reason to be watching the compass.

Hi Scott,

I'll try and provide more insight.

OK, it sounds like you like to sail with your wind instruments on AP. OK.

You say that you can tell you have been lifted or knocked when "When I'm lifted the apparent wind shifts aft and I can see it on the wind instrument instantly. When I'm knocked the opposite happens."

If you do that, then you are very slow. Slow because when you see that condition on your wind instrument, your sails HAVE to be grossly out of trim. Think about it. That's the ONLY way the AW can change. The wind changed, and you didn't react. Now you are either luffing or reaching with close-hauled sails. Both slow.

If you sail to your tell tails, you would 'feel' the slow wind direction change, and turn up or down based on what the telltails are telling you. You would see the turn on your compass as your heading changed, and then if knocked maybe decide to tack. At no time are your sails out of trim, did the AW change, or was boat speed effected.

Optimal upwind sailing means close hauled on the lifted board. Telltails and compass sort that out. For windward work, wind instruments are unnecessary.

Set to AW, the instruments are slower and less accurate than your windex. Why? Hysteresis.

Now to true wind.

True wind lets you make informed decision on WHERE you can sail, and with what sail. It also helps future maneuvers, because you can figure out where the true wind will be after a turn. That's impossible with apparent wind. Leave the instrument to TRUE, and use it as part of your scan to have good situational awareness (SA). Need Apparent Wind? Look at your windex.

When I drive upwind, I'm ONLY looking at Telltails (90%), Compass (3%) Speedo (3%) and heel angle (1%). When fetching or sailing downwind, true wind becomes more important, as sail choice and downwind angle depend on it.