Wind speed/direction gauges...do you use them?

May 17, 2004
5,542
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Hey--dudes, if you want to know the "True" wind direction using the compass, then put the boat head-to-wind for a second or two and get the (reciprocal) compass heading or bear off to DDW and read it there. Even then you will not have the TRUE wind direction for navigation unless you correct the compass heading to true heading (variation & deviation corrections), etc. On any other heading with boat underway the Point of Sail is relative to the APPARENT wind.
Pointing straight into the wind long enough to figure out its direction is slow. For any time when I'm in enough of a hurry to care about the true direction I'll stick to the method of averaging compass headings on opposing tacks, or just read it from my wind indicator linked to GPS to do the calculations.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Unfair! This whole discussion is about what people do WHO DO NOT have electronic weather stations hooked up. Read the original post!
 
May 17, 2004
5,542
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Unfair! This whole discussion is about what people do WHO DO NOT have electronic weather stations hooked up. Read the original post!
At the risk of wandering off topic in self-defense, the OP's question was whether it was worth repairing a disconnected electronic wind sensor vs just using a windex. Pretty sure my response was still on topic, stating that I prefer the electronic sensor but that there are alternatives.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,161
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Geez Louise! I'm not confusing POS diagrams with the boat's wind gauge. FYI: I'm an ASA Instructor. Someone needs to annotate those diagrams to explain that the WIND direction (arrow at the top) is the APPARENT wind direction unless the boat is either fixed (as it is in the diagram-but which never happens on the water), pointing head to wind, or headed dead down wind. Maybe I'll fix those diagrams some day myself. Hey--dudes, if you want to know the "True" wind direction using the compass, then put the boat head-to-wind for a second or two and get the (reciprocal) compass heading or bear off to DDW and read it there. Even then you will not have the TRUE wind direction for navigation unless you correct the compass heading to true heading (variation & deviation corrections), etc. On any other heading with boat underway the Point of Sail is relative to the APPARENT wind.
Wow, an ASA instructor? Are you kidding? Do you think that true wind must be expressed as a "true" compass heading? Dude.... you can express true wind in any medium you want that makes it separate from apparent wind. Magnetic, True, compass pts., even magnetic relative bearings to the boat's centerline..... such as you see in Polar charts.

Let me give you my definition of Points of Sail.... so you understand my logic.... "A point of sail is the relative angle between true wind direction and the vessel's course." Thus when a boat is sailing with true wind at 90 deg to it's centerline.. it is on a beam reach. This would be the point of sail whether the boat was limping along at 1kt or blasting along at 8kt.... no matter what the apparent wind indicator was showing... the boat is still beam reaching across the course.

Your explanation would infer that Points of Sail means only: "how the sails are pointed" if the wind is coming from a particular direction. In fact it is often used to show a starting point for sail trim... but the direction the sails are pointing does not define the point of sail. If that were true, a beach cat would never sail on anything less than a close reach.

You'll never find the lay line with this kind of logic. Let me ask you this... if you're sailing up the course close hauled with the wind at 38 deg apparent... when do you turn for the mark? The AW reading will not help you here. You need to know your boat's tacking angle and what course your boat will sail relative to the true wind direction. After the turn the AW indicator will moves forward as boat speed increase, but your course and true wind remain the same... thus staying on the same point of sail.

Finally, the reason you average your close hauled headings to approximate true wind direction is to avoid your "point the boat into the wind" solution. It makes so much sense, it is so logical that I find it difficult to believe you've ever sailed on a small boat with no instruments except a compass, before.... You don't have to make adjustments for magnetic to true... because the "true" in "true wind" does not mean True compass direction. As stated before, true wind direction can be expressed in a number of ways.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
"A point of sail is the relative angle between true wind direction and the vessel's course." Thus when a boat is sailing with true wind at 90 deg to it's centerline.. it is on a beam reach. This would be the point of sail whether the boat was limping along at 1kt or blasting along at 8kt.... no matter what the apparent wind indicator was showing... the boat is still beam reaching across the course.
No, it isn't. Forgive me, but the above is a totally wrong statement. The boat is sailing on a beam reach when its Windex points normal (90% relative) to the vessel's heading (i.e., abeam). That's it. Not harder than that. Also, if the wind (across the race course as you say) is arriving from the west it is arriving from a direction of 270 deg T-- and that is the True Wind direction. However, referencing the compass one might report that the true wind is bearing from 256 deg M, etc, but it would still be arriving from 270 deg TRUE.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,161
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
No, it isn't. Forgive me, but the above is a totally wrong statement. The boat is sailing on a beam reach when its Windex points normal (90% relative) to the vessel's heading (i.e., abeam). That's it. Not harder than that. Also, if the wind (across the race course as you say) is arriving from the west it is arriving from a direction of 270 deg T-- and that is the True Wind direction. However, referencing the compass one might report that the true wind is bearing from 256 deg M, etc, but it would still be arriving from 270deg TRUE.
Right... but you can say it anyway you like.... as long as you specify that it is true. True wind is 270t, or true wind direction is 354m .... or you can say we're sailing on a course on 180m, true wind is 270m, relative bearing on true wind is 90 deg, we're on a starboard beam reach. See how easy that is.

John Rousmaniere, in his classic book "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" in Chapter 2 "getting under way" says this about the Points of Sail diagram:
While the diagram does not accurately represent the forces involved, it does show the geometric relationship between wind and boat.
This statement is presented before the apparent wind discussion later in the chapter. Nowhere is it stated or implied that apparent wind defines the concept of points of sail... the geometric relationship between wind and boat. or the boat's course compared to true wind direction.

"The Sailor's Handbook" Halsey Herreshoff..... Page 27 'point of sailing',
the relative speed of any boat is determined by its Point of Sail or ANGLE TO THE WIND
Note: he's talking about the boat's angle to true wind direction, not the wind the boat is sailing in (apparent).
It goes on and on.. here are excerpts for the infamous Wikipedia using John Rousemaniere, Gary Jobson, Halsey Herreshoff, etc. as references
Points of Sail describes a sailing boat's course in relation to the wind direction.
Points of sail

The course of a sailing vessel in relation to the direction of the wind, divided into six points: in irons (pointed directly into the wind), close hauled (sailing as close into the direction of the wind as possible), close reach (between close reach and beam reach), beam reach (perpendicular to the wind), broad reach (wind behind the vessel at an angle), and running downwind or running before the wind (the wind is behind the vessel).
In most every introduction to sailing course ever written, filmed, or taped... the concept of Points of Sail is introduced BEFORE the concept of apparent wind. So when they say "wind direction, how the wind hits the boat, the direction the wind is coming from, where is the wind, this arrow depicts the wind" any phrase like this at all.... they are talking about the actual, or true, wind direction as it comes across the water and strikes your boat, whether it is standing still or moving. At this point in the instruction, the wind is just the wind.... there is no mention of true vs. apparent wind, because the concept has not even been introduced yet.... that always appears later in the lesson.... So... since the points of sail concept is established before the idea of apparent wind is introduced.... does it make any sense to abruptly redefine the points of sail in terms of apparent wind .... try to explain THAT to your confused students and sound like you know what you're talking about.

If your sailing instruction experience is limited to the ASA courses... then I would highly recommend you broaden your outlook. The subject is very lightly mentioned in the ASA beginner course... and is used primarily to help students understand where to initially position their sails.... but in real life, my definition is more universally accepted.

Now, I can find sources that refer to points of sailing in terms of apparent wind..... or positions of sails in relation to apparent wind.... but I'll defer to John Rousmaniere, Gary Jobson and the rest for my definition, before accepting yours...
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
. At this point in the instruction, the wind is just the wind.... there is no mention of true vs. apparent wind, because the concept has not even been introduced yet.... that always appears later in the lesson.... So... since the points of sail concept is established before the idea of apparent wind is introduced.... does it make any sense to abruptly redefine the points of sail in terms of apparent wind .... try to explain THAT to your confused students and sound like you know what you're talking about.
Yes, it does make sense and here is how you do it. Students are given the POS diagram to study. Sail trim is introduced at the same time with respect to the Points of Sail. Next, a model boat (with a big Windex atop the mast) is set up in the room along with a fan for demonstration. The fan is turned on and the boat is rotated through the POS positions relative to the fixed fan (which represents in your explanation the "true" wind). Students learn what POS the boat is on by referring to the Windex (which is pointing TOWARD THE WIND) relative to the long axis of the boat, etc. Later, students are taken out in a boat and we sail. The exercise is to apply the POS concept on the water. I ask them to bring the boat respectively to close-hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach, DDW, etc., and to hold that POS for several minutes BY REFERRING TO THE WINDEX (which is what they saw in the classroom demonstration). Later that day or the next, we go back to the classroom and I explain to them the difference between the wind's angle when blowing over a static object versus one in motion, etc. Students have enough experience doing stuff (like bike riding) to know that a moving object creates its own wind, etc. It is THEN that you introduce the concept of the APPARENT WIND and explain to them how the combination of the true wind direction and boat's speed and heading create the apparent wind angle that the WINDEX responds to, etc. Thus, on the water the POS is the boat's heading relative to the apparent wind.

Now, if you want to create confusion and appear the idiot give the students the classroom demonstration as above, take them out on the water and then tell them to find their points of sail but now disregard the Windex b/c it is no longer pointing toward "the wind" when the boat is in motion. Uh? This, I believe, is what you are advocating?

Joe, you have to follow logic here regardless of whether or not a previous author has given a complete and thorough explanation of the concepts. As I said, someone needs to correctly annotate those diagrams.
 

kito

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Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
Forgive me for this question but is it safe to say that if I was driving down the road at 30 mph and had a true wind perpendicular to me blowing 30 mph also, and I stuck my windex out the window that it would read 45 degrees off true wind direction?
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Yes-- if it didn't blow out of your hand! BTW if we use knots (30-30), the apparent wind speed would be 42.4 knots. But if you're traveling only 15 kt (15-30) the Windex would point to about 27 degrees forward of the true wind direction at about 33 kt.
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
Apparent wind is ultimately the wind you feel and the wind vanes feel. If I am sailing down wind? Wing on wing, I may not feel much of a breeze at all but I may be moving at 5 knots. If I'm efficient, it may be close to dead calm in the cockpit. If I'm sailing close into 15 knot winds and clipping along at 7 knots, I better hold on to my hat!

This was about instruments and I may have been partly responsible for derailing the thread, for that I am sorry. The discussion is good tho, shall we start a new one and let this one return to digital instruments?

I tell you this. I only have a few years experience and I would not make a good instructor, but frankly it's just not rocket science. There are physics at work, and in order to fetch every ounce of power out of the wind, we need to know sail trim, points of sail and other stuff. A racer may pay more attention than a cruiser would (unless he's trying to outrun a storm)

Sail diagrams will be accurate for the most part but some boats point better than others, weather helm and other dynamics are variables the skipper may account for.

I say go out and sail, have fun, learn your boat. if others don't like the way you do it, tell them to walk the plank and ride on someone else's boat or worry about their own issues. I will certainly ask for help if I need it tho.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
POS is absolutely a true wind item. Rational: if the true wind is from the North then the boat would be in irons only when pointed North. If it was an apparent wind item there would never be an "in irons" direction as the boat would constantly be making a new apparent "in irons" direction. When in irons true and apparent wind would be the same, so in reality there can be only one way to describe POS and that is by true wind. If you use apparent wind you get a rather lopsided set of POS that are beating (relative to the true wind) due to boat velocity.
alternate ( and opposite) rational: it is an apparent wind thing as you sail to the apparent wind. so it does not matter which way the wind is actually blowing (true) it only matters how the wind is blowing across the deck.
Seriously folks POS is a construct to help understand and talk about what is happening. If you accept that premise then it really does not matter if you are talking true or apparent wind. It only matters that you understand that beating is beating and ......
even more seriously, nobody uses POS to calculate anything it is "just for talking about" so relax, have another refreshing beverage and go sailing
 

kito

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Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
I started this thread and there is no need to start a new one. It's been a good read. It's my personal best as far as responses :) Actually a windex is all we need for now. The Admiral is usually at the helm and I man the sheets. I tell her to go "that" direction and just keep the arrow from the dead zone. I trim the sails somewhere in-between max speed and over heeling and we're good. I am not a racer but as we know, if there are sailboats close together then there is a race :) We must be doing something right since I have never been overtaken yet.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Kito,

I know I will take some hits for this, but I no longer use an integrated GPS, AWI, Knot meter, autopilot & depth gage on my boat (Seatalk System).

I did have this setup & then this integration of instrument failure happened to me at a critical moment 200 miles from land, at night, in a terrible gale. My GPS was off course, my AWI stopped working & my pretty lady onboard was white with fear. Well, we survived without any damage or injury, but it got me to thinking.

From what I have experienced on land of electronic failures from cable to wireless to cell etc., all of these fail all of the time. Sometimes for short periods, other times for longer periods. Experiencing this, I re-did my electronics thinking. I decided to disconnect my Seatalk system although, I have all the equipment but now, keep everything separate.

My GPS, autopilot, AWI & Depth Gage, are wired independently. I also rely on Charts, NOAA weather forecasts, alerts & my sextant to give me all the info I need. I always check the local conditions & I always end up dead-on to my destinations, no matter nite/day nor, the conditions. And, I only have a 30 footer.

I just felt that with an integrated system, if something went snap, I could not only lose my integration, but instruments that that were not shot dead first hand, With all integration, if the controller failed(as in my case), the other instruments may malfunction or fail also. This happened.

I have friends with this type combo package & some have had controllers fail. Sometimes this burned out their electronics in other units as well.

So staying on the side of caution, I NOW have a separate GPS, Depth, AWI & Autopilot instruments all isolated. If one goes out, I have the other instruments working. If these die, I have my backups, if these die, I have my sextant & if this dies, I have alot a sh**load of prayers as a backup.

Plus, the more one leans on integrated electronics, the more that can fail. I find that keeping it simple works best for me. Not to say that another sailor's preference is wrong, for me it's of a personal taste. Alot would depend on if you are a long-distance cruiser/racer, then the parameters surely change somewhat, but I'll bet your backup systems, are wired in also.

Remember the Prudent Navigator's motto:
"The Prudent Navigator never relies on only one form of navigation".

CR
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
I I am not a racer but as we know, if there are sailboats close together then there is a race :) We must be doing something right since I have never been overtaken yet.
Funny but true! The "race" only ends when I am out front, if the other boat is overtaking or ahead, we were just sailing :)
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,161
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Yes, it does make sense and here is how you do it. Students are given the POS diagram to study. Sail trim is introduced at the same time with respect to the Points of Sail. Next, a model boat (with a big Windex atop the mast) is set up in the room along with a fan for demonstration. The fan is turned on and the boat is rotated through the POS positions relative to the fixed fan (which represents in your explanation the "true" wind). Students learn what POS the boat is on by referring to the Windex (which is pointing TOWARD THE WIND) relative to the long axis of the boat, etc. Later, students are taken out in a boat and we sail. The exercise is to apply the POS concept on the water. I ask them to bring the boat respectively to close-hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach, DDW, etc., and to hold that POS for several minutes BY REFERRING TO THE WINDEX (which is what they saw in the classroom demonstration). Later that day or the next, we go back to the classroom and I explain to them the difference between the wind's angle when blowing over a static object versus one in motion, etc. Students have enough experience doing stuff (like bike riding) to know that a moving object creates its own wind, etc. It is THEN that you introduce the concept of the APPARENT WIND and explain to them how the combination of the true wind direction and boat's speed and heading create the apparent wind angle that the WINDEX responds to, etc. Thus, on the water the POS is the boat's heading relative to the apparent wind.

Now, if you want to create confusion and appear the idiot give the students the classroom demonstration as above, take them out on the water and then tell them to find their points of sail but now disregard the Windex b/c it is no longer pointing toward "the wind" when the boat is in motion. Uh? This, I believe, is what you are advocating?

Joe, you have to follow logic here regardless of whether or not a previous author has given a complete and thorough explanation of the concepts. As I said, someone needs to correctly annotate those diagrams.
Well, that explains your confusion alright. You have left out a major point with your table top model discussion... The model is NOT moving. If you simple said "the point of sail is determined by the geometric position of the BOAT to the wind direction" and then said "the sails are initially set to reflect the boat's position, or point of sail" The student would be correctly informed. No... it is your curriculum that is the culprit here... not Gary Jobsen and John Rousmaniere. Your mis applied logic cannot change the course of sailing history and tradition. Your ASA version of determining points of sail is an ill conceived shortcut... mixing apples with oranges, if you will.

So... knowing the point of sail will initially help you get the sails positioned. However, when the boat is moving... the wind vane is distorted by the boat's forward motion... you have to watch other indicators outside the boat... waves, flags, etc. to determine point of sail... you cannot rely on the wind vane under those circumstances.

I've read through the basic ASA tutorial... and they use the points of sail to exclusively show students basic sail settings. In one quiz question they even ask what point of sail the vessel is on by looking at its sail trim, no mention of wave direction..... Good thing it wasn't a catamaran. The big problem is that later in the course, if you discuss tacking angles, pointing, finding the lay line, knowing when it's clear to cross in front of another vessel, your students need to use the point of sail reference chart as it was originally defined.. boat's course to true wind.

It's a simple concept to convey, if it is done early in the teaching process. Failing to do so leads to confusion down the line... as has been evidenced. on this forum.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Although it can be counter-intuitive for the less experienced, advanced sailors express Points of Sail (POS) in TRUE wind. True wind speed and direction is the arbitrator of what sail can be flown. On light fast boats, reaching pushes the apparent wind very far forward. To a cruiser it would ALWAYS be close reaching, but it's not. Most racing boats have a reaching spinnaker than can be flown on a beam reach (90-110 TRUE) in a particular range of wind.

In 8 knots of breeze, we sail at 6+. True wind on the beam (90), and apparent at 45. The wind on the deck is straight on your face. Beam reaching.

 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Although it can be counter-intuitive for the less experienced, advanced sailors express Points of Sail (POS) in TRUE wind. True wind speed and direction is the arbitrator of what sail can be flown. On light fast boats, reaching pushes the apparent wind very far forward. To a cruiser it would ALWAYS be close reaching, but it's not. Most racing boats have a reaching spinnaker than can be flown on a beam reach (90-110 TRUE) in a particular range of wind.

In 8 knots of breeze, we sail at 6+. True wind on the beam (90), and apparent at 45. The wind on the deck is straight on your face. Beam reaching.
If we say that the POS of the boat is beam reaching (True wind abeam), but the sails are sheeted in hard (presumably) and with the apparent wind in your face looking forward, then the basic POS instructional diagram we've been discussing which also shows (defines) sail trim as a function of POS ultimately breaks down.

I did not wish to include sail trim per se as another (complex) variable into this discussion, but here we are, unavoidably. What you're saying is that a vessel can be close-hauled (= having the sails set for sailing as nearly against the wind as the vessel will go) (one POS) while on a beam reach (a different POS). Is that it? Remember, "the wind" is the True Wind by your and Joe's interpretation.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
If we say that the POS of the boat is beam reaching (True wind abeam), but the sails are sheeted in hard (presumably) and with the apparent wind in your face looking forward, then the basic POS instructional diagram we've been discussing which also shows (defines) sail trim as a function of POS ultimately breaks down.

What you're saying is that a vessel can be close-hauled (= having the sails set for sailing as nearly against the wind as the vessel will go) (one POS) while on a beam reach (a different POS). Is that it? Remember, "the wind" is the True Wind by your and Joe's interpretation.
No that's not what I'm saying. But we are closer to agreement than you might think.

Close hauled in that picture would have the apparent 8 degrees farther forward.

When you are sailing as fast as the true wind, the apparent wind angle gets very funny. If judged by apparent, our boat when reaching would ALWAYS be close reaching. So you need a better way to describe it. Where the TRUE is much better.

When the apparent wind is on the beam, the true is actually often back at 150... basically downwind.

If you look at the Volvo boats, they look almost close hauled, even going downwind. The sail choice (headsail vs genaker) is a matter of a few degrees. You can't say you are always close reaching. The crew would sound like the Gieco commercial 'Everyone knows that'.

I agree that the model using true is less obvious for learning, in particular when talking about static pictures and models. But is better and more accurate in real life, in particular on faster boats.