I've discovered that if I get hit by a gust and am heeling too hard for my comfort, I can let go of the wheel and the boat will naturally head up and level out. I can then resume my course. However.. The other day we were out, we were on a very broad reach and the winds were very light. So we decided to try "running." Poled out the jib, lashed the mainsail out and we were bobbing along at about 1.5 knots. Then 2.5, then 4.... 5.....6.5 and the boat's starting to heel. Letting go of the wheel didn't seem to be an option. Actually, nothing seemed to be an option. Pulling in the jib could get you impaled, the mainsail's lashed.... What should we have done? In retrospect, we probably shouldn't have been running, but nobody got hurt. I think that's the only way to find out what your limits are... push them. I think I found a new definition for "exhilarating."
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When the Wind comes up
the fun begins. Always rig pole for release under pressure. Glad you had a good time.
the fun begins. Always rig pole for release under pressure. Glad you had a good time.
Running
You say you were running ...and heeling? You sure something like the wind direction or the direction you were heading didn't change? Regards, Big joe
You say you were running ...and heeling? You sure something like the wind direction or the direction you were heading didn't change? Regards, Big joe
Pole Release
Don't understand why you couldn't just let the pole forward and detach the jib sheet from the pole, leaving the main vanged down with a preventer. You can then sheet the jib in behind the main and drop it to the deck (or furl it).
Don't understand why you couldn't just let the pole forward and detach the jib sheet from the pole, leaving the main vanged down with a preventer. You can then sheet the jib in behind the main and drop it to the deck (or furl it).
Keep pushing
Letting go of the wheel is not the best way to handle any emergency situation. True, a well balanced boat should head into the wind when overpowered, but it is best to maintian helm control as best you can when that happens. On your broad reach, if things got too dicey, you could still head up towards windward, as long as seas were not so big as to cause a problem. Another option you have is to ease out the jib and furl it as it luffs. A broad reach with a poled out jib can be a lot of fun in heavy air. The boat will take a lot of wind on this heading, but you are right to look for ways to keep this under control. generally, when boats are overpowered going downwind they broach on their own. A broach will start the boat rounding up to windward, depowering all the sails and will put you back on your feet. When one gets into broaching territory - especially when cruising - it is time to shorten the head sail.
Letting go of the wheel is not the best way to handle any emergency situation. True, a well balanced boat should head into the wind when overpowered, but it is best to maintian helm control as best you can when that happens. On your broad reach, if things got too dicey, you could still head up towards windward, as long as seas were not so big as to cause a problem. Another option you have is to ease out the jib and furl it as it luffs. A broad reach with a poled out jib can be a lot of fun in heavy air. The boat will take a lot of wind on this heading, but you are right to look for ways to keep this under control. generally, when boats are overpowered going downwind they broach on their own. A broach will start the boat rounding up to windward, depowering all the sails and will put you back on your feet. When one gets into broaching territory - especially when cruising - it is time to shorten the head sail.
heading up from a broad reach?
In my experience, that is exactly what you don't want to do. When you are on a broad reach, you are being pushed (sails catching the wind) but when you turn upwind the sails will become more powerful because they will become airfoils (like a wing). If you thought you were heeling a lot on the broad reach, just wait till you hit a reach. If you are on a broad reach and you need to depower, turn downwind so that the main covers the headsail and also reduces the A wind. Then go deal with the poll and reducing sail.
In my experience, that is exactly what you don't want to do. When you are on a broad reach, you are being pushed (sails catching the wind) but when you turn upwind the sails will become more powerful because they will become airfoils (like a wing). If you thought you were heeling a lot on the broad reach, just wait till you hit a reach. If you are on a broad reach and you need to depower, turn downwind so that the main covers the headsail and also reduces the A wind. Then go deal with the poll and reducing sail.
on a broad reach!
on a broad reach, you should head off. meaning put the wind more behind you. heading up will put your mainsail more square to the wind giving it more heel and power.Driving down will increase your speed but give the boat more stability and less heel, the higher the speed the more stability. if you had a spin up this is the same phenom. drive off in a puff, up in a lull. trying to head up will have the same chance of a windward broach. easing or letting the main out big time has the same affect as driving off, it puts the apparent wind more behind you. a beam reach or any point of sail higher, then you want to do just the opposite. beam reach or higher, in a panic if you have a tiller, you can just let go of it and the boat will naturally head up head to wind in irons. broad reach or deeper don't dare let go of that tiller or wheel or you may very well be in a broach situation. in this scenario the wind will spin the boat very quickly to a beam reach with lots of heel and a possible broach. the above is predicated on the premise that you didn't have time to adj any sail prior to getting slammed with a gust. one other point, i failed to notice was that you said you had the jib poled out. on a dead run keep the wind behind you until you can get things under control.if you can, drive slightly to weather to make sure that a sudden wind shift doesn't get you by the lee. when winds are high and gusty there usually is a shift with the gusts. it pays to keep track of which way the wind shifts in a gust. Tom; remember a number of years ago during a gov cup, and we had a chute up and in a matter of about 1 minute, the wind went from about 10knots to 25plus. if i had headed up we would have been on our side. instead i drove off to keep the boat on its feet in order to douse it. S/V Que Pasa?
on a broad reach, you should head off. meaning put the wind more behind you. heading up will put your mainsail more square to the wind giving it more heel and power.Driving down will increase your speed but give the boat more stability and less heel, the higher the speed the more stability. if you had a spin up this is the same phenom. drive off in a puff, up in a lull. trying to head up will have the same chance of a windward broach. easing or letting the main out big time has the same affect as driving off, it puts the apparent wind more behind you. a beam reach or any point of sail higher, then you want to do just the opposite. beam reach or higher, in a panic if you have a tiller, you can just let go of it and the boat will naturally head up head to wind in irons. broad reach or deeper don't dare let go of that tiller or wheel or you may very well be in a broach situation. in this scenario the wind will spin the boat very quickly to a beam reach with lots of heel and a possible broach. the above is predicated on the premise that you didn't have time to adj any sail prior to getting slammed with a gust. one other point, i failed to notice was that you said you had the jib poled out. on a dead run keep the wind behind you until you can get things under control.if you can, drive slightly to weather to make sure that a sudden wind shift doesn't get you by the lee. when winds are high and gusty there usually is a shift with the gusts. it pays to keep track of which way the wind shifts in a gust. Tom; remember a number of years ago during a gov cup, and we had a chute up and in a matter of about 1 minute, the wind went from about 10knots to 25plus. if i had headed up we would have been on our side. instead i drove off to keep the boat on its feet in order to douse it. S/V Que Pasa?
tcbro
YOU'RE NUTS! When the wind is behind you, the sails are catching the wind. When the wind gets in front of you, the sails are more powerful. Yes, at some point they will luff, but you will have to go through a period of more heel and increased power before they do and that's the dangerous part. And no matter what your trim is, when the wind goes from aft to fore, it passes the optimum angle before it gets to luffing.
YOU'RE NUTS! When the wind is behind you, the sails are catching the wind. When the wind gets in front of you, the sails are more powerful. Yes, at some point they will luff, but you will have to go through a period of more heel and increased power before they do and that's the dangerous part. And no matter what your trim is, when the wind goes from aft to fore, it passes the optimum angle before it gets to luffing.
This is a good discussion ...
I have a tendancy to agree with tcbro and have reacted the same way when gusts hit on a broad reach. But the initial heeling, and increase in apparent wind (as Ted says) makes for some tense moments before the sails are luffing. So it is good to hear the explanations for heading off downwind and I think I will have to try this to get more experience. I have to admit that the reason for not wanting to do this is the fear of an uncontrolled, accidental jibe. I have never been an advocate of "just let go of the wheel (or tiller)" when the boat heels excessively. In my mind, this is just a panicky reaction and should never be encouraged. For one thing, if you have an inexperienced helmsman and you instruct him or her to "just let go" if the heeling is frightening to them, you are risking a sudden change in direction that could cause somebody (possibly the skipper) to be hurt or even thrown overboard, not to mention the possible damage to the rudder as it slams hard over. Maybe it's fine for a small dinghy sailer, but not a keel boat. It's far better to instruct the inexperienced helmsman to anticipate weatherhelm in a gust (they are going to feel it no matter what) and allow it to feather the bow into the wind and relieve heeling in a controlled way. The people that I have instructed in doing this quickly feel far safer than they would if they simply let go while the boat jerks around and the sails start flogging. As for excessive heeling on a broad reach, we will have to work on this. When my son was at the helm and we had this condition, I had him hold the course while the gusts moved on, because when his first reaction was to allow the boat to round-up it quickly produced more heeling, just as you guys describe. I think it would have taken a LOT more wind to cause a broach on the broad reach so it was better to hold the course.
I have a tendancy to agree with tcbro and have reacted the same way when gusts hit on a broad reach. But the initial heeling, and increase in apparent wind (as Ted says) makes for some tense moments before the sails are luffing. So it is good to hear the explanations for heading off downwind and I think I will have to try this to get more experience. I have to admit that the reason for not wanting to do this is the fear of an uncontrolled, accidental jibe. I have never been an advocate of "just let go of the wheel (or tiller)" when the boat heels excessively. In my mind, this is just a panicky reaction and should never be encouraged. For one thing, if you have an inexperienced helmsman and you instruct him or her to "just let go" if the heeling is frightening to them, you are risking a sudden change in direction that could cause somebody (possibly the skipper) to be hurt or even thrown overboard, not to mention the possible damage to the rudder as it slams hard over. Maybe it's fine for a small dinghy sailer, but not a keel boat. It's far better to instruct the inexperienced helmsman to anticipate weatherhelm in a gust (they are going to feel it no matter what) and allow it to feather the bow into the wind and relieve heeling in a controlled way. The people that I have instructed in doing this quickly feel far safer than they would if they simply let go while the boat jerks around and the sails start flogging. As for excessive heeling on a broad reach, we will have to work on this. When my son was at the helm and we had this condition, I had him hold the course while the gusts moved on, because when his first reaction was to allow the boat to round-up it quickly produced more heeling, just as you guys describe. I think it would have taken a LOT more wind to cause a broach on the broad reach so it was better to hold the course.
Hey Kathy, were you heeling or rolling
Sometimes running wing and wing the boat will start rolling from side to side. To stop this you need to turn onto a broad reach and get the sails to the same side of the boat, either jibe the boom across or sheet the jib back to leward. So since you were "freaking" you're not going to attempt a jibe, so cast off the jib sheet, if that doesn't kill enough speed/heeling, then if you can drop the jib from the cockpit, release the halyard, then head up a little to spill for air from the main, get your boom unlashed and ease it fully. Should be in controll now to figure out reefing or running with just the main or dropping the main and putting the jib back up. PS, long sentences rule!
Sometimes running wing and wing the boat will start rolling from side to side. To stop this you need to turn onto a broad reach and get the sails to the same side of the boat, either jibe the boom across or sheet the jib back to leward. So since you were "freaking" you're not going to attempt a jibe, so cast off the jib sheet, if that doesn't kill enough speed/heeling, then if you can drop the jib from the cockpit, release the halyard, then head up a little to spill for air from the main, get your boom unlashed and ease it fully. Should be in controll now to figure out reefing or running with just the main or dropping the main and putting the jib back up. PS, long sentences rule!
To get this straight
You're on a run and suddenly the wind picks up dramaticly. So nothing is going to luff any time soon. The boat is begining to heel, probably to the side the main is on. The boat is losing some rudder as the stern begins to lift, and your undies are getting big bites taken out of them. Where's an expert when you need one? My GUESS is try to pull in the main a little to dump air toward the jib to level the boat and lose a little air since it has the most pulleys and power to control anything, while making sure the wind stays behind you. You'd definitly be risking a nasty jibe though so untie it and make a loop to keep it loosely tied before sheeting in. Then as you lose pace continue till you eventually jibe to a broad reach and can roll or douse the jib. Anybody ever tried to roll in a stressing poled out jib in an emergency? Would it go at all? I don't think the leverage would be there.
You're on a run and suddenly the wind picks up dramaticly. So nothing is going to luff any time soon. The boat is begining to heel, probably to the side the main is on. The boat is losing some rudder as the stern begins to lift, and your undies are getting big bites taken out of them. Where's an expert when you need one? My GUESS is try to pull in the main a little to dump air toward the jib to level the boat and lose a little air since it has the most pulleys and power to control anything, while making sure the wind stays behind you. You'd definitly be risking a nasty jibe though so untie it and make a loop to keep it loosely tied before sheeting in. Then as you lose pace continue till you eventually jibe to a broad reach and can roll or douse the jib. Anybody ever tried to roll in a stressing poled out jib in an emergency? Would it go at all? I don't think the leverage would be there.
What's the big deal?
So, you are sailing near DDW (against all logic and advice from this forum) and the wind has gone from 10 when you poled the jib out to 25 gusting 30. So? DDW in 25-30 true a 30 footer is doing 7 knots or better. That makes the wind on deck only 18-23. Anyone not able to furl the jib in 18-23 knots? The pole prevents you from furling only while the sheet is tensioned. The pole does not prevent you from easing the sheet and rolling the sail up. You are going to have to leave "the safety of the cockpit" to get the pole down, but that should be no problem since you had to leave the cockpit to set it. Once the jib is eased and luffing or furled, reef the main. You can drag the sail down while it is plastered to the rigging and risk tears and jambs, or you can turn the boat slowly towards the wind until the main is no longer plastered against the rigging and reef it. How is any of this a problem? It is not my intention to be harsh on an inexperienced sailor. What is any of us doing sailing in conditions where we are not controlling the boat? This isn't a carnival ride, we are supposed to be in control, not the other way around. Do you walk the dog or does the dog walk you? Capn Jim makes a good point, turning down is the correct gust response ... which is another good reason not to be sailing DDW ... DDW leaves you nowhere to turn. Another often overlooked dynamic is that when you turn the boat into the wind the inertia of the rig will make it heel more. Turning down drives the boat under the rig and reduces heel.
So, you are sailing near DDW (against all logic and advice from this forum) and the wind has gone from 10 when you poled the jib out to 25 gusting 30. So? DDW in 25-30 true a 30 footer is doing 7 knots or better. That makes the wind on deck only 18-23. Anyone not able to furl the jib in 18-23 knots? The pole prevents you from furling only while the sheet is tensioned. The pole does not prevent you from easing the sheet and rolling the sail up. You are going to have to leave "the safety of the cockpit" to get the pole down, but that should be no problem since you had to leave the cockpit to set it. Once the jib is eased and luffing or furled, reef the main. You can drag the sail down while it is plastered to the rigging and risk tears and jambs, or you can turn the boat slowly towards the wind until the main is no longer plastered against the rigging and reef it. How is any of this a problem? It is not my intention to be harsh on an inexperienced sailor. What is any of us doing sailing in conditions where we are not controlling the boat? This isn't a carnival ride, we are supposed to be in control, not the other way around. Do you walk the dog or does the dog walk you? Capn Jim makes a good point, turning down is the correct gust response ... which is another good reason not to be sailing DDW ... DDW leaves you nowhere to turn. Another often overlooked dynamic is that when you turn the boat into the wind the inertia of the rig will make it heel more. Turning down drives the boat under the rig and reduces heel.
Lighten up
The pole was set in no wind, why else would you pole a jib? OK you're right, once the jib is loosed, furling is possible with the pole in place. Still, a pucker moment in my log. So what's wrong with sailing DDW?
The pole was set in no wind, why else would you pole a jib? OK you're right, once the jib is loosed, furling is possible with the pole in place. Still, a pucker moment in my log. So what's wrong with sailing DDW?
We learn from the pucker moments ... 
I agree 100% that the first time you find yourself in big wind and waves it is a pucker moment. As long as no one gets hurt and we learn something, handling pucker moments is a confidence builder. I'm sure Kathy will find the next time more fun and less stress. As far as sailing DDW goes ... Sailing DDW has several things going against it. First and foremost it is not the fastest way to get downwind. When sailing DDW in any kind of sea, the natural motion of the boat increases the chance of an unplanned gybe. When sailing DDW the natural shifts in wind direction during puffs and lulls increase the chance of an unplanned gybe. When sailing DDW the boat tends to roll more than when on a reach. If you get it just wrong the eddies off the sails will amplify the rolling motion. As the rolls get wilder, at some point the boom goes in the water and the boat either breaks the boom (if it is vanged/prevented to the rail) or pivots on the boom, sails by the lee and then gybes. The vanged/prevented boom is now in a perfect position to hold the boat on her side and spill all the beer. The correct response is to drive the boat under the rig to control/stop the roll. If you are DDW you are limited in how far or fast you can turn the boat without having an unplanned gybe. Because sailing DDW leaves little room for error, it is more stressful than broad reaching to get downwind. The only time DDW is calm and relaxing is when there is very little wind. Light wind is when sailing DDW is the slowest. For most of the boats we sail the only time sailing very deep is fast is in higher wind, above 14-16 knots. Even then 165-170 degrees is as deep as you need to sail. That gives you 10-15 degrees to play with. In wind under 10-12 knots the magic number is something like 140 degrees off the wind. This pulls the apparent wind forward to between 95-110 degrees (almost a beam reach), the boat sails so much faster that it more than makes up for the extra distance. Yes, you have to gybe downwind. I prefer gybes at the time and place of my choosing to gybes at the time and place of the boat's choosing ... maybe I'm a control freak?
I agree 100% that the first time you find yourself in big wind and waves it is a pucker moment. As long as no one gets hurt and we learn something, handling pucker moments is a confidence builder. I'm sure Kathy will find the next time more fun and less stress. As far as sailing DDW goes ... Sailing DDW has several things going against it. First and foremost it is not the fastest way to get downwind. When sailing DDW in any kind of sea, the natural motion of the boat increases the chance of an unplanned gybe. When sailing DDW the natural shifts in wind direction during puffs and lulls increase the chance of an unplanned gybe. When sailing DDW the boat tends to roll more than when on a reach. If you get it just wrong the eddies off the sails will amplify the rolling motion. As the rolls get wilder, at some point the boom goes in the water and the boat either breaks the boom (if it is vanged/prevented to the rail) or pivots on the boom, sails by the lee and then gybes. The vanged/prevented boom is now in a perfect position to hold the boat on her side and spill all the beer. The correct response is to drive the boat under the rig to control/stop the roll. If you are DDW you are limited in how far or fast you can turn the boat without having an unplanned gybe. Because sailing DDW leaves little room for error, it is more stressful than broad reaching to get downwind. The only time DDW is calm and relaxing is when there is very little wind. Light wind is when sailing DDW is the slowest. For most of the boats we sail the only time sailing very deep is fast is in higher wind, above 14-16 knots. Even then 165-170 degrees is as deep as you need to sail. That gives you 10-15 degrees to play with. In wind under 10-12 knots the magic number is something like 140 degrees off the wind. This pulls the apparent wind forward to between 95-110 degrees (almost a beam reach), the boat sails so much faster that it more than makes up for the extra distance. Yes, you have to gybe downwind. I prefer gybes at the time and place of my choosing to gybes at the time and place of the boat's choosing ... maybe I'm a control freak?
Franklin, Jim, I had a bit of brain fade.
You guys are both right. I was writing "Broad Reach" but thinking "Beam Reach". At the computer, I have to think, On the boat, instinct takes over. I'm sure I would have headed down in real life. Had my terminology criss-crossed. I stand corrected (and embarrassed) Tom s/v Orion's Child
You guys are both right. I was writing "Broad Reach" but thinking "Beam Reach". At the computer, I have to think, On the boat, instinct takes over. I'm sure I would have headed down in real life. Had my terminology criss-crossed. I stand corrected (and embarrassed) Tom s/v Orion's Child
Tom, your forgiven, we all do that now and then!
Your still way on top with the points from the "cleat seat" invention. we still use it. I envy you still being in the water. we did'nt even get in this year. too many things going on , what with the new orchard and renovations to the house. somethings always got to give and this year it was the boat. S/V Que Pasa?
Your still way on top with the points from the "cleat seat" invention. we still use it. I envy you still being in the water. we did'nt even get in this year. too many things going on , what with the new orchard and renovations to the house. somethings always got to give and this year it was the boat. S/V Que Pasa?
Moody - you make good points but..............
Some of my most memorable passages have been made DDW wing and wing in 25 + knots. A preventer on the main is essential, becuse one is going to need it. A poled out jib is also important in these conditions. On the helm, one must be vigilant. With healthy following seas, I love this tack and have used it often. As I said, you make good points and they are valid, but this point of sail can be used in winds 25 - 35 safely if one has the ability to handle the helm - which comes from practice. You do have the option to head up and release the jib if things get out of control - which has never happened to me- but it is the escape. Wing on wing in heavy air is exciting sailing for the cruiser w/o a spinnaker.
Some of my most memorable passages have been made DDW wing and wing in 25 + knots. A preventer on the main is essential, becuse one is going to need it. A poled out jib is also important in these conditions. On the helm, one must be vigilant. With healthy following seas, I love this tack and have used it often. As I said, you make good points and they are valid, but this point of sail can be used in winds 25 - 35 safely if one has the ability to handle the helm - which comes from practice. You do have the option to head up and release the jib if things get out of control - which has never happened to me- but it is the escape. Wing on wing in heavy air is exciting sailing for the cruiser w/o a spinnaker.
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