Newbie here (again) - I have Lewmar one speed non-self-tailing winches. I'm having trouble with the winch slipping once a fair amount of tension is on the line (main halyard and genoa sheet) on my Catalina 27. Can anyone offer up some wisdom as to what I may be doing wrong? Any experiences/opinions on the Wincher Self-Tailers advertised on page 877 of West Marine's 2006 Master Catalog? Thanks.
winching technique question
- Thread starter Eric14428
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For a winch to operate effectively, you need a sufficient number of turns on the barrel of the winch and a small constant force holding the tail. If either of these two requirements are not met, the line will slip and not hold on the winch. I have seen numerous newbies crank on the winch handle with one hand but fail to keep a constant pull on the tail allowing all the winched line to be lost as it is winched in.
grinding and tailing
alan's comment explains things pretty well, so I'll just elaborate a bit. You must be pulling on the line's end (tailing) while turning the winch (grinding) to make it work. For one person it's easier to use a ratchet motion rather than trying to grind the winch full circle. On a single speed you can simply hold the line taught in one hand and ratchet the winch with the other. On a two speed you would have to ease line tension on the ratchet stroke so the drum can slip under the wraps. The more wraps you have on the drum the more friction, so if you have problems tailing put another wrap or two on the drum. Regarding the "winchers"... check the archives. There has been a lot of discussion about them. Some folks like them, some don't. A wincher will NOT turn your Non St winch into an ST winch! The grip is on the underside of the rubber ring so you must COMPLETELY load up the winch drum in order for them to work. That's okay on a halyard winch where you're not taking the line on and off like you do on a sheet winch. Also there is no "stripper" to peel the line's tail off the winch as you grind it in. That is the expensive mechanical part of a selt tailer. The wincher has a groove around it that can be used as a cleat. I find the wincher a complete inconvenience as a sheet winch, but as a halyard winch it's somewhat functional. I found two at Minney's Marine Surplus a few years back and paid $4 a piece for them. Glad I didn't buy them new because they're not worth it.
alan's comment explains things pretty well, so I'll just elaborate a bit. You must be pulling on the line's end (tailing) while turning the winch (grinding) to make it work. For one person it's easier to use a ratchet motion rather than trying to grind the winch full circle. On a single speed you can simply hold the line taught in one hand and ratchet the winch with the other. On a two speed you would have to ease line tension on the ratchet stroke so the drum can slip under the wraps. The more wraps you have on the drum the more friction, so if you have problems tailing put another wrap or two on the drum. Regarding the "winchers"... check the archives. There has been a lot of discussion about them. Some folks like them, some don't. A wincher will NOT turn your Non St winch into an ST winch! The grip is on the underside of the rubber ring so you must COMPLETELY load up the winch drum in order for them to work. That's okay on a halyard winch where you're not taking the line on and off like you do on a sheet winch. Also there is no "stripper" to peel the line's tail off the winch as you grind it in. That is the expensive mechanical part of a selt tailer. The wincher has a groove around it that can be used as a cleat. I find the wincher a complete inconvenience as a sheet winch, but as a halyard winch it's somewhat functional. I found two at Minney's Marine Surplus a few years back and paid $4 a piece for them. Glad I didn't buy them new because they're not worth it.
Winch Winding
Eric, the other posters missed telling you how many "turns" to wrap the line around the winch drum. There must be 3-4 turns for a boat your size. 3 may do, but 4 will hold better and avoid any slippage. Give it a try along with the techniques expressed by our fellow posters.
Eric, the other posters missed telling you how many "turns" to wrap the line around the winch drum. There must be 3-4 turns for a boat your size. 3 may do, but 4 will hold better and avoid any slippage. Give it a try along with the techniques expressed by our fellow posters.
Self Tailing Worth the Cost
If you are planning to sail alone, you should really think about investing in self tailing winches, particularly for your jib sheets. When tacking by yourself if there is any kind of wind, you will run out of hands if you have to grind, tail and steer at the same time. Similarly, when hoisting your main, it is very difficult to keep the bow into the wind and tail at the same time, when alone.
If you are planning to sail alone, you should really think about investing in self tailing winches, particularly for your jib sheets. When tacking by yourself if there is any kind of wind, you will run out of hands if you have to grind, tail and steer at the same time. Similarly, when hoisting your main, it is very difficult to keep the bow into the wind and tail at the same time, when alone.
winchers
I put them on the genoa sheet winches on a Glouchester 22. As Joe or someone said, they did not make the winches self tailing but they did make cleating the sheets much easier. Instead of using the horn cleats provided for this, I simply put the sheets in the grove of the wincher. I never had any slippage. It is also much easier to uncleat in a hurry from the wincher than from a horn clear. If you use a cam or jam cleat for your genoa sheets, then there is probably no advantage to the winchers. I personally thought they were more than worth their cost since I single hand most of the time. My current boat, an Oceanis 281, has self tailing 2 speed genoa sheet winches but the winch for the in-mast main furler was a single speed non-self tailer with a wincher on it. When furling the main, I needed one hand to tail the outhaul, one hand to tail the furling line and one hand to crank the winch. After 3 years, it dawned on me that I only had 2 hands, so I recently sold my non-sp winch to the guy that now owns the Glouchester to use for his main halyard winch (it previously didn't have one) and added a block at the mast, a deck organized,and he really likes the ease of raising the sail from his cockpit now. I bought a self tailier for my in-mast furler and now, I have the correct number of hands for the job. Life is good. Bill
I put them on the genoa sheet winches on a Glouchester 22. As Joe or someone said, they did not make the winches self tailing but they did make cleating the sheets much easier. Instead of using the horn cleats provided for this, I simply put the sheets in the grove of the wincher. I never had any slippage. It is also much easier to uncleat in a hurry from the wincher than from a horn clear. If you use a cam or jam cleat for your genoa sheets, then there is probably no advantage to the winchers. I personally thought they were more than worth their cost since I single hand most of the time. My current boat, an Oceanis 281, has self tailing 2 speed genoa sheet winches but the winch for the in-mast main furler was a single speed non-self tailer with a wincher on it. When furling the main, I needed one hand to tail the outhaul, one hand to tail the furling line and one hand to crank the winch. After 3 years, it dawned on me that I only had 2 hands, so I recently sold my non-sp winch to the guy that now owns the Glouchester to use for his main halyard winch (it previously didn't have one) and added a block at the mast, a deck organized,and he really likes the ease of raising the sail from his cockpit now. I bought a self tailier for my in-mast furler and now, I have the correct number of hands for the job. Life is good. Bill
riding turns
An ASA instructor once indicated to me that 4 or 5 turns was the appropriate number on the winch and I always just went with that, but on my new boat with new rigging I was getting riding turns all the time. At a North U. Seminar I asked the author/instructor John Rousmaniere about this problem and he indicated he had found 3 to be the right number of turns to avoid constant riding...
An ASA instructor once indicated to me that 4 or 5 turns was the appropriate number on the winch and I always just went with that, but on my new boat with new rigging I was getting riding turns all the time. At a North U. Seminar I asked the author/instructor John Rousmaniere about this problem and he indicated he had found 3 to be the right number of turns to avoid constant riding...
re Number of Turns
The recommended number of turns on a winch could be varied depending on conditions. For self-tailers with a good rough grip (like new) I use three turns. Sometimes, very seldom, I'll use four turns on the primaries but standardly I'll use three. If the coarse surface on the drum has got a little smooth over the years it would make sense to go to, say, four turns so there is adequate friction on the line otherwise the self-tailer has to do a lot more of the work of pulling the line. For non-self tailing winches, these are no-doubt going to be old because, for the most part, about 15 to 20 years ago self-tailers were being installed for primaries if not the other winches. So, if you're trying to tail and crank at the same time you'll probably find it easier to go with at least four wraps. It'll be easier on the tailing and, besides, the coarse part of the drum is probably fairly smooth by now. Large winches are like power steering - they make life easier. Some of the older boats may have smaller winches because during the recession builders tried to save costs and this was a good place to do it. For example, the HL-35 came standard with 24s for primaries where as the H 35.5 came with 43s. Both were self-tailing so this isn't too much of a factor, BUT, if they weren't then you'd have more work to tail on the 24s. A good upgrade for the HL-35 is to get new 43s for primaries and move the 24s aft for use as secondaries as there is a winch base all set up for them.
The recommended number of turns on a winch could be varied depending on conditions. For self-tailers with a good rough grip (like new) I use three turns. Sometimes, very seldom, I'll use four turns on the primaries but standardly I'll use three. If the coarse surface on the drum has got a little smooth over the years it would make sense to go to, say, four turns so there is adequate friction on the line otherwise the self-tailer has to do a lot more of the work of pulling the line. For non-self tailing winches, these are no-doubt going to be old because, for the most part, about 15 to 20 years ago self-tailers were being installed for primaries if not the other winches. So, if you're trying to tail and crank at the same time you'll probably find it easier to go with at least four wraps. It'll be easier on the tailing and, besides, the coarse part of the drum is probably fairly smooth by now. Large winches are like power steering - they make life easier. Some of the older boats may have smaller winches because during the recession builders tried to save costs and this was a good place to do it. For example, the HL-35 came standard with 24s for primaries where as the H 35.5 came with 43s. Both were self-tailing so this isn't too much of a factor, BUT, if they weren't then you'd have more work to tail on the 24s. A good upgrade for the HL-35 is to get new 43s for primaries and move the 24s aft for use as secondaries as there is a winch base all set up for them.
Wincher Self Tailers
I have Lewmar 40 non-self-tailing winches and added the Wincher Self Tailers. They work great, the only proble I have found is that when I use the winch handle they don't seat properly. I'm looking for a winch handle that will work!! Jack Manning S/V Victim of Fate Atlantic City, NJ
I have Lewmar 40 non-self-tailing winches and added the Wincher Self Tailers. They work great, the only proble I have found is that when I use the winch handle they don't seat properly. I'm looking for a winch handle that will work!! Jack Manning S/V Victim of Fate Atlantic City, NJ
Proper Winch
Jack- I too had the same problem with a proper winch that would work with them. Then I realized, I put them on upside down. Check it out, you will find this to be the problem.
Jack- I too had the same problem with a proper winch that would work with them. Then I realized, I put them on upside down. Check it out, you will find this to be the problem.
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