Winches: So How Many Actually Take Apart to Clean/Lube
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When you use a self tailing winch, do you have to cleat it off?
I read that people don't like to tail and grind(as Joe says), but I don't think it's a problem at all. The only part I don't like is having to uncleat and then recleat.
I may make something for this. Like a rope clutch that you can put the rope in side ways and then pull a small handle down like an alligator mouth that chomps down on the sheet. Then when you pull the handle up the jaws open up clear to let the rope come out freely.
I have two Lewmar 40s. The only issue I have is the chrome is coming off. Does anyone know the procedure for rechroming them? Does the old chrome need to be completely removed first? Has anyone had old winches rechromed?
I read that people don't like to tail and grind(as Joe says), but I don't think it's a problem at all. The only part I don't like is having to uncleat and then recleat.
I may make something for this. Like a rope clutch that you can put the rope in side ways and then pull a small handle down like an alligator mouth that chomps down on the sheet. Then when you pull the handle up the jaws open up clear to let the rope come out freely.
I have two Lewmar 40s. The only issue I have is the chrome is coming off. Does anyone know the procedure for rechroming them? Does the old chrome need to be completely removed first? Has anyone had old winches rechromed?
Hermit....... The self-tailing winch has a jaw ring on top that grabs the sheet and pulls it off the drum... then there is a stripper arm that peels the line away from the jaws as you turn the winch handle. 99 percent of sailors I've been around simply use the jaw ring as a "clam cleat" to hold the sheet....
For your standard sheet winches.... use an open style cleat, not a clutch or any thing where the line goes through a fairlead. You want to be able to quickly cast off the sheet so it can run free. For halyard winches a clutch or captive style cleat is better because it helps keep things organized. In the picture below you can see I've rigged my primary with a cam style cleat(no fairlead) on a pedestal that helps prevent over rides. The smaller secondary winch uses an inexpensive "clam" cleat... The cleats should be positioned in a convenient, functional location. Your boat was probably originally equipped with "jam" cleats, same as mine, which are horn cleats with a pincher on one of the horns.
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One of mine stopped turning this spring. Took it apart to learn that it is really not as complicated as I had feared. I pulled mine apart and sprayed everything down with corroborator cleaner, wiped it clean and then put a high grade silicone grease from a bike shop around all the moving parts.
No Biggie.
No Biggie.
Maybe I'm in the wrong part of the country. When I went to look for quotes to rechrome my two cabin top winches, I found few in the SF area. And the prices were higher than the alternative of simply sticking with a no longer pretty but othewise fully functional winches.
Gone are the days when rechroming bumpers and hub caps and the like was a common practice. Now the main retail demand probably is only from car/motorcycle restorers and enthusiasts. Small runs, so setup costs for the electro-plater are high. And I'm sure that EPA compliance for heavy metals and chemical disposal are also expensive.
If anybody knows of an economical place to rechrome, please pass on. Also, can a rechrome job be done so that the drum section for the line wraps has bit of roughness? Are there any other means to improve an old winch's appearance, such as powder coating?
I love powder coating. I just got this frame back yesterday. It's UT burnt orange. Hook em'horns. Anyway this whole frame cost $50. It is very durable as far as paint goes. I have had many things powder coated over the last few years, but I haven't seen a powder that would hold up with as much abrasion as a rope will put on it. There is a coating that they put on the heads of pistons that is some kind of ceramic, obviously tough, but I have no experience with it.
When I went to a chrome shop, that would actually do small parts. They quoted me $75 for each winch. They outsource it to a bigger shop but do all their own polishing. This is the part that concerns me; the parts I brought them were freshly welded steel. So they ground, sanded and polished them before plating. I was wondering if anyone has ever had their winches rechromed, because I think the winch has to have some what of a texture to it to grab the line. If they have to take ALL the old chrome off, it is likely they will have to sand the winch body smooth. IS that OK? I was hoping someone already did it and had some info.
I bet the EPA is all over them. The first chrome place I went to, I was there for 3 minutes, and I couldn't get the taste of metal out of my mouth all day. That is some nasty stuff.
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What is the small cam cleat for that is mounted in between the winches, the one not on a pedestal?
I would definitely be happy with the set up you have. I only have two winches for the jib, none for a spinnaker.
My boat just has regular cleats behind the winches, in the pic. I have never seen cleats with a pincher on top. Post a pic if you have one.
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Chrome Plate
Depends on the type of chrome desired and whether used for cosmetic versus wear resistance. On a winch it is likely more for cosmetics and maybe for corrosion protection. Chrome is typically applied in the .0005 to .006 inches thickness. It is a rate problem, the longer in the tank the thicker the chrome, once you get above about .006 it starts to get really rough and build up large nodules around sharp corners.
The texture of the winch is not from the chrome, the substrate metal has to have the texture first. Using a knorling tool on a lathe is a good option for this but don't go very deep with the knurl or it will eat up your lines. Like most electroplating the field density will cause thicker plating near enternal corners and thinner plating near fillet radii.
Hexavalent chrome is a carcinogen so industry is working feverishly to eliminate it from all chemical processes. Type II anodize on aluminum was done with chromic acid and is pretty much banned for all new designs. Chromates are another concern. Any plating shop should be able to do your winches for you. A couple mils of chrome should do the trick. Cost is relative to how much labor is required and time in the tank. So masking the part will require time, stripping the old chrome will require labor and tank time, etc. If you can mask them up yourself so only the surfaces needing chrome are exposed you might save a few bucks. You could also consider nickel plating. Not as shiny as chrome but a good hard surface and good corrosion protection.
In the end this is a friction problem. The rougher the surface the higher the coefficient of friction so the less likelihood of slipping. Even the self tailers are a friction problem with the coefficient of friction probably approaching infinity as the huge teeth bite into the line when you try to drag it across the surface..
Depends on the type of chrome desired and whether used for cosmetic versus wear resistance. On a winch it is likely more for cosmetics and maybe for corrosion protection. Chrome is typically applied in the .0005 to .006 inches thickness. It is a rate problem, the longer in the tank the thicker the chrome, once you get above about .006 it starts to get really rough and build up large nodules around sharp corners.
The texture of the winch is not from the chrome, the substrate metal has to have the texture first. Using a knorling tool on a lathe is a good option for this but don't go very deep with the knurl or it will eat up your lines. Like most electroplating the field density will cause thicker plating near enternal corners and thinner plating near fillet radii.
Hexavalent chrome is a carcinogen so industry is working feverishly to eliminate it from all chemical processes. Type II anodize on aluminum was done with chromic acid and is pretty much banned for all new designs. Chromates are another concern. Any plating shop should be able to do your winches for you. A couple mils of chrome should do the trick. Cost is relative to how much labor is required and time in the tank. So masking the part will require time, stripping the old chrome will require labor and tank time, etc. If you can mask them up yourself so only the surfaces needing chrome are exposed you might save a few bucks. You could also consider nickel plating. Not as shiny as chrome but a good hard surface and good corrosion protection.
In the end this is a friction problem. The rougher the surface the higher the coefficient of friction so the less likelihood of slipping. Even the self tailers are a friction problem with the coefficient of friction probably approaching infinity as the huge teeth bite into the line when you try to drag it across the surface..
It appears you have the skinny on this stuff so I will ask you about something else.
I made some rope clutches out of aluminum, yesterday I bought some solid plastic sheeves and a 12' of 3"x3/16" aluminum. I am going to make a deck organizer and some stand up blocks to run my reefing lines and lazy jack line back to the cockpit.
I looked into anodizing them myself. It appears that sulfuric acid and a battery charger is all you need for small parts. Is this anodizing what industry uses? I intend to use cloth dye to give them a gunmetal finish color.
I would go with nickle plating on my winches, but it can't be that much cheaper than getting them chromed. The labor is the same for both and that has to be most of the cost.
Hermit:
I perked up with your mention of DIY aluminum anodizing. Let us know how you get on.
I had no idea that this could be done outside of a dedicated shop/factory. A quick internet search yielded some info on the process. And a call to a local battery shop specializing in industrial supply revealed they can sell sulfuric acid. (6 quart minimum quantity is more than I'm likely to ever go through need, but the price is reasonable.)
A number of times, I've made various items with generic store-bought aluminum (or aluminum salvaged from various home projects) which gets unsightly quite quickly in the salt air. It would be great to clean them up fresh again then anodize. Also the anodizing on the aluminum surface of some older blocks has been eaten through by the SS straps on the blocks. I could take the blocks apart and re-anodize the aluminum?
I wonder if DIY anodizing will have the same anti corrossion resistance as professionally done.
from the reading online I gather that time in the tank and current strength will determine how deep the anodizing goes. there is a place here in San Antonio that sells 93% sulfuric acid for $50 a gallon, I think that needs to be cut in half with purified water.
You can dip that old aluminum stuff in another type of acid that will take all that corrosion off and leave bright aluminum.
I made a little aluminum pedestal for my chart plotter, and it looked like crap in a year. I put a lot of hours into this triple clutch I made, so I don't want to regret installing it without anodizing first. I took this apart and polished all the parts so they look like chrome, but that won't last either.
I will take some pictures and let you know the details of the process when I finish. I may get to do it tonight if this place will sell me the acid today.
You can dip that old aluminum stuff in another type of acid that will take all that corrosion off and leave bright aluminum.
I made a little aluminum pedestal for my chart plotter, and it looked like crap in a year. I put a lot of hours into this triple clutch I made, so I don't want to regret installing it without anodizing first. I took this apart and polished all the parts so they look like chrome, but that won't last either.
I will take some pictures and let you know the details of the process when I finish. I may get to do it tonight if this place will sell me the acid today.
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Not a chemist but...
Three types of anodize are commonly used by industry. Chromic acid...which as noted is carcinogenic from the hexavalent chrome, and sulphuric acid which is what everyone is converting to to get away from chromic. The third type is called hard anodizing or hardcoat and is used to build up a thick (.002 or greater) wear resistant surface that will be ground or lapped to a final finish. So forget the chromic and hardcoat processes for your needs.
The reason it is called ANODize is it is an anodic process. You apply a current to the part in the presence of a chemical to get a reaction. In this case it forms a hard corrosion protective thin film. I can't tell you concentrations or voltages off the top of my head so go to the specs and read them. Use safety goggles and chemical gloves when working with this stuff !
BUT THERE IS ANOTHER OPTION....and it is much easier. There is a process called conversion coating that is not quite as good as anodize but if you scratch an anodized part it is used to touch up the surfaces. It also makes a protective layer through a chemical reaction BUT DOES NOT REQUIRE ELECTRICITY. You can get these materials at many supply stores so search the internet. Conversion coat is conductive whereas anodize is not. When you want to keep a part electrical bonded for lightning protection of an airplane you typically use conversion coat on the surfaces that connect parts together. Often an anodized part has a surface machined off and conversion coated to to make electrical connection with the grounding system. I highly recommend you take this path instead. Your swab on the chemical, let it sit for a while, or dunk the part in a vat of the stuff, and then neutralize it by rinsing. Very easy and will still pass a salt fog test for 40 days or so.
Three types of anodize are commonly used by industry. Chromic acid...which as noted is carcinogenic from the hexavalent chrome, and sulphuric acid which is what everyone is converting to to get away from chromic. The third type is called hard anodizing or hardcoat and is used to build up a thick (.002 or greater) wear resistant surface that will be ground or lapped to a final finish. So forget the chromic and hardcoat processes for your needs.
The reason it is called ANODize is it is an anodic process. You apply a current to the part in the presence of a chemical to get a reaction. In this case it forms a hard corrosion protective thin film. I can't tell you concentrations or voltages off the top of my head so go to the specs and read them. Use safety goggles and chemical gloves when working with this stuff !
BUT THERE IS ANOTHER OPTION....and it is much easier. There is a process called conversion coating that is not quite as good as anodize but if you scratch an anodized part it is used to touch up the surfaces. It also makes a protective layer through a chemical reaction BUT DOES NOT REQUIRE ELECTRICITY. You can get these materials at many supply stores so search the internet. Conversion coat is conductive whereas anodize is not. When you want to keep a part electrical bonded for lightning protection of an airplane you typically use conversion coat on the surfaces that connect parts together. Often an anodized part has a surface machined off and conversion coated to to make electrical connection with the grounding system. I highly recommend you take this path instead. Your swab on the chemical, let it sit for a while, or dunk the part in a vat of the stuff, and then neutralize it by rinsing. Very easy and will still pass a salt fog test for 40 days or so.
More info
I always refer to the process by the trade name ALODINE so search on that. I just saw one site with a quart bottle for $18.95. Have a blast and stay safe handling this stuff, don't get it on your skin or ingest it in any way.:naughty: If you do Santa may not visit next December.
Chromate conversion coating is a type of conversion coating applied to passivate aluminium, zinc, cadmium, copper, silver, magnesium, tin and their alloys to slow corrosion.[1] The process uses various toxic chromium compounds which may include hexavalent chromium.[2] The industry is developing less toxic alternatives in order to comply with substance restriction legislation such as RoHS.[3] One alternative is trivalent chromate conversion which is not as effective but less environmentally damaging.
Chromating is commonly used on zinc-plated parts to make them more durable. The chromate coating acts like a paint, protecting the zinc from white corrosion, this can make the part several times more durable depending on chromate layer thickness.[citation needed] It cannot be applied directly to steel or iron, and does not enhance zinc's cathodic protection of the underlying steel from brown corrosion.[4] It is also commonly used on aluminium alloy parts in the aircraft industry where it is often called chemical film, or the well known brand name Alodine.[5] It has additional value as a primer for subsequent organic coatings, as untreated metal, especially aluminium, is difficult to paint or glue. Chromated parts retain their electrical conductivity to varying degrees, depending on coating thickness. The process may be used to add color for decorative or identification purposes.
Chromate coatings are soft and gelatinous when first applied but harden and become hydrophobic as they age.[6] Curing can be accelerated by heating up to 70°C, but higher temperatures will gradually damage the coating over time.[4] Some chromate conversion processes use brief degassing treatments at temperatures of up to 200°C, to prevent hydrogen embrittlement of the substrate.[4] Coating thickness vary from a few nanometers to a few micrometers thick.[4]
The protective effect of chromate coatings on zinc is indicated by color, progressing from clear/blue to yellow, gold, olive drab and black.[7] Darker coatings generally provide more corrosion resistance. Chromate conversion coatings are common on everyday items such as hardware and tools and usually have a distinctive yellow color.
Phosphate coatings on iron and steel may also be treated with a chromic acid rinse to enhance the phosphate coati
I always refer to the process by the trade name ALODINE so search on that. I just saw one site with a quart bottle for $18.95. Have a blast and stay safe handling this stuff, don't get it on your skin or ingest it in any way.:naughty: If you do Santa may not visit next December.
Chromate conversion coating is a type of conversion coating applied to passivate aluminium, zinc, cadmium, copper, silver, magnesium, tin and their alloys to slow corrosion.[1] The process uses various toxic chromium compounds which may include hexavalent chromium.[2] The industry is developing less toxic alternatives in order to comply with substance restriction legislation such as RoHS.[3] One alternative is trivalent chromate conversion which is not as effective but less environmentally damaging.
Chromating is commonly used on zinc-plated parts to make them more durable. The chromate coating acts like a paint, protecting the zinc from white corrosion, this can make the part several times more durable depending on chromate layer thickness.[citation needed] It cannot be applied directly to steel or iron, and does not enhance zinc's cathodic protection of the underlying steel from brown corrosion.[4] It is also commonly used on aluminium alloy parts in the aircraft industry where it is often called chemical film, or the well known brand name Alodine.[5] It has additional value as a primer for subsequent organic coatings, as untreated metal, especially aluminium, is difficult to paint or glue. Chromated parts retain their electrical conductivity to varying degrees, depending on coating thickness. The process may be used to add color for decorative or identification purposes.
Chromate coatings are soft and gelatinous when first applied but harden and become hydrophobic as they age.[6] Curing can be accelerated by heating up to 70°C, but higher temperatures will gradually damage the coating over time.[4] Some chromate conversion processes use brief degassing treatments at temperatures of up to 200°C, to prevent hydrogen embrittlement of the substrate.[4] Coating thickness vary from a few nanometers to a few micrometers thick.[4]
The protective effect of chromate coatings on zinc is indicated by color, progressing from clear/blue to yellow, gold, olive drab and black.[7] Darker coatings generally provide more corrosion resistance. Chromate conversion coatings are common on everyday items such as hardware and tools and usually have a distinctive yellow color.
Phosphate coatings on iron and steel may also be treated with a chromic acid rinse to enhance the phosphate coati
Another option
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|292249|312057&id=79418
Self Jamming Cleat
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|292249|312057&id=79418
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Here's a pic of the other side with everything rigged... The stainless cam cleat you're asking about is used for the jib downhaul, it will be the RF control line whenever the change is made from hanked ons.... on the other side the cleat is not used much, but I originally thought it could handle the tack line... I now run the tackline to the cabin top halyard winches but left the cleat there in case it's needed for something else.
The rest is pretty obvious, except you will notice the short track next to the bulkhead. There is a lead block for bringing the genoa to an inside position... again, not used much because it's easier to barber-haul... an right behind that is the swivel cam cleat that is part of my very cool Garhaurer movable jib car system... Many of the guys here have this set up and some day you will realize its benefit and get one too... either as a roller reefing cruiser or a trim conscious racer.
So, my enthusiastic friend, here's another couple pics of the starboard side showing the spaghetti I love... BTW disregard the cabin top halyard stuff... it's all been changed.
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that is a lot of lines. I like the movable jib car system. when I get sailing figured out and know where and when to move the jib cars I will probably want them.
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